|
TimeTechTalk.com > Time Tech Talk > Craftsmans Bench > Watchmakers > Dismounting a legend: 58mm Zlatoust Russian Diver |
|
TimeTechTalk.com > Time Tech Talk > Craftsmans Bench > Watchmakers > Dismounting a legend: 58mm Zlatoust Russian Diver |
| Welcome to 3T! Please take the time to register and join in on the friendly,knowledgeable watch talk.Please note that not all registrations will receive an immediate activation e-mail.Those who do not receive an immediate notification will be activated manually within 48hrs. by an admin. without an e-mail activation url sent to you,you may then sign in using your username and password,if you feel there is a problem please e-mail us at timetechtalk@hotmail.com and include your name and username and we activate your account.Thank You! |
| Moderated by: 3T | ||
| Author | Post | |||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
|
Hammerfjord Moderator 
|
Hello all and welcome to my autopsy of the Zlatoust I got few days ago: There was some dust on the dial and under the glass so I couldn't resist It's showing on the certificate that I got with it: 1977... I will not say that I'm 200% sure about that but beeing a 58mm diameter/22mm thick model, it seems after some research that it is the last of 4 generations. The first beeing heavily radioactive as the lume was made of Radium, the others have a Tritium lume: So I can open mine safely without getting a third ball growing during the operation...Here's some wrist-shots of the 300 grams beast in action.    First, I unscrew the bezel. The cristal appear: It's 4mm thick.  When taken off and returned, you can see the crystal, rubber gasket and a steel ring making contact with the dial.  Here's the watch without it's crystal: The second screw(hiding in the little hole) counting from the right after the marker 4, is the one who free the stem. The other black screws are holding the dial to the movement(left of the 4 and 10)  The dial and movement are taken off and setted back on the returned crystal, sitting on the steel ring as it should. Not many rubies to see! Seems like there is only 7 of them as the inscription says...They hide well under the hood I would say...   Here's the stem near the movement: No joke, it's the thickest stem I've seen... Note the regulator´s pin who's far up: Top regulation! Well, the watch hold well time so...  The movement is stamped "Moskva" and it's a real CCCP period... The last numbers reversed on the left should speak about the production date from what I observed on other movements who had slight different markings...80? Hmmm, not sure about that but then how can the watch be from 77? I can't tell...  The case been machined after it was nickel plated: See the brass appearing... Raw work there...  The only inscription inside: P14...? The P is an R in Cyrillic alphabet if I recall well so it would be R14...Don't catch the meaning...  Here's the case back marking:  The stem hole and where the crown-cap is getting screwed: Note the 3 screws holding the rubber gasket who comes in contact with the cap.   A last look at the movement and dial screwed together and the crystal setting...   Thanks for looking and you are welcome to write some input to help my research if you know have any further infos...  |
|||||||||
|
joecb 3T WIS 
|
Great dissection and narrative.. thanks William for the look inside.. |
|||||||||
|
bigrustypig 3T WIS 
|
joecb wrote:Great dissection and narrative.. thanks William for the look inside.. +1. Nice grab William and the looks of the watch is still very unique to me. If you've got the patience and the tools, that movement and rotor would benefit from some good ol' fashioned finishing and polishing. Enjoy it, amigo! I know how it feels  |
|||||||||
|
stew77 Admin 
|
That is awesome William!!! For some reason, I had a feeling you would be dismantling your newly acquired Zlatoust sooner rather than later (especially given that there are mostly only re-issues of this one floating around out there these days)!!! I really enjoyed the read and detailed photos. You've got a real winner with this one. |
|||||||||
|
Hammerfjord Moderator
|
Thanks guys! As I was saying to Rolf(Fnusnu) today, the quality of the movement is apparently reflected by the bad economy in Russia when it was builded: That´s my conclusion as I saw earlier movements with up to 15 jewels and slight better finish. That´s the way things change with history and as Rolf answered me: It's even more a piece of history then... Those watches are often to sell for around 1200$ and even they are rare, I find it difficult to justify this price premium for a brass nickeled case and a rough movement. Having paid much less for it, I find myself happy on the catch |
|||||||||
|
joecb 3T WIS
|
you have an authentic piece of cold war history, William... |
|||||||||
|
Hammerfjord Moderator
|
joecb wrote:you have an authentic piece of cold war history, William...Yes, we could say that...  |
|||||||||
|
FnuSnu99 3T WIS 
|
Thanks a lot for sharing the pictures and write up buddy! Great fun to watch and read. And there is no doubt about it (at least not in my mind) you got yourself a real find there, and something very special indeed. He who seeks, finds And I actually think that the case being raped like that, after it was nickle plated, and finish being a bit on the rough side to say the least, just ads to the authenticity of this Russian underwater pizza. As we talked about earlier, times were though back then, and they made a sturdy and "functional" dive watch, and not a piece of jewelry. Compare it to a T-72 or a AK-47 if you will ...it might not be the best/finest in its class, but it will just keep on working and working, as it was built do do. Wear it in good health my friend! |
|||||||||
|
Hammerfjord Moderator
|
FnuSnu99 wrote:Thanks a lot for sharing the pictures and write up buddy! Great fun to watch and read. And there is no doubt about it (at least not in my mind) you got yourself a real find there, and something very special indeed. He who seeks, finds Thanks Rolf! You're right |
|||||||||
|
SDREW 3T WIS
|
Hello, I saw this posting on a search for movement information....while this posting is over a year old, I still thought I'd reply. I'm guessing you know this by now, buy your Zlatoust is a remake, the early one made for the tourist industry in the 1970's, it is not the real thing. The real Zlatoust are made of steel/alloy and not nickel plated brass, the brass was never used by the military or any branch of the soviet government. I own a later model Zlatoust, looks almost a 1/1 to the one here, but my movement has a much better finish and mine has a steel case, also has the correct band. The last model steel version is 270 grams, not 300 grams, the steel/alloy version weighs less than brass. Good reference for Russian timepieces is http://www.ussrtime.com |
|||||||||
|
Hammerfjord Moderator
|
SDREW wrote:Hello, I've seen a bunch of remake but they had different dials, different cases-back inscriptions(specially marked with an anchor). They also don't have the 3 screws on the crown base like mine and they house Molnija movements. Now, following your link (custom search: "Zlatoust") I can see the model numbered as 0510 (60's/70's) and it's case back: It's clearly in steel as we can see the machining circle marks and the deep number stamp: 2524  Still on your link, on the model numbered 0611(who's right under the 0510) and who's dated from 16 sept.75 , you can see that the case back with the numbered 1716 don't look machined at all like the other one. The surface has much more bright and seems very well polished after all those years... Can you see the patina difference? It's obvious. It looks like nickeled brass. And it has very close serial numbers to mine as well: Mine being 1723. It's claimed to be a "Hard hat diver" Zlatoust model as the 50's original and second it in the chronologic order of the collection(who knows why...).  They might have made a serial with brass cases back in time, who knows. It's not because the guy says that the case is in steel that it's in steel: I've never seen steel looking like that and if he would have opened his watch, he might have had the same surprise as me...Brass. Now, I don't claim to be an expert and I took contact with Mr Fedotov at the Zlatoust factory today: I sent him all the pictures I have and asked him for an answer. As soon as he answer me, I will post here. But if mine is a fake like you claim: So is the the one presented in the collection of your link. As I would have a hard time to believe that the one who's labeled 0611 and stamped 1716 , has a steel case: It don't look like it at all to my eyes... The guy on your site is also saying that the 50's model is the original: This is true enough but I will personally not buy it as it's dial has a radioactive lume and is dangerous by contact with it specially if you open the watch and manipulate it. |
|||||||||
|
SDREW 3T WIS
|
Mate, Mark Gordon isn't just some guy, he is the most knowledgeable source on Russian time pieces in the world, he is a member on many of the top forums and is also known to all the top Russian dealers. He also has nothing to gain by saying one of his is steel and then another brass FYI- the brass versions all look like yours on the inside, the plating used was very poor and flakes. Mine is polished steel/alloy, but on the inside of the watch is brushed steel like the older versions, in fact the outer case is the only placed polished     You'll see my Zlatoust came on the Original Soviet issue strap, I've since then made my own bund strap....watch is actually comfortable now! ..... steel looking like the high polish, well I've had dozens of steel watches polish to that finish, even have some steel pots and pans that are polished like that on the exterior, and brushed on the interior, and of course I currently have my steel/alloy Zlatoust to prove steel can look polished to such a finish. I'm currently in the prototype stages of manufacturing my own line of watches, I have a 220v polishing machine that will make any metal look like a mirror finish, it just take the correct steps to get the finish perfect -AKA wet sanding, and buffing at very high speeds and high temps with correct polishing compounds. I have purchased many vintage watches, people have polished them to a gloss/chrome finish, only because over time they have worn and the owners don't know how to refinish brushed steel(or don't have the tools needed), my 1970 Omega Seamaster 600 PloProf came to me with the polished look, I had to put the case onto a lathe to refinish it correctly...its now perfect Last edited on Tue Nov 27th, 2012 12:23 pm by SDREW |
|||||||||
|
SDREW 3T WIS
|
Here is a larger pic of the interior of my Zlatoust, you'll see its brushed steel/alloy. I did a complete dismantle and cleaning and oiling of my movement too, so I've had a hands on view of the interior, even sanded a gouge down close to the tube.  Last edited on Tue Nov 27th, 2012 12:43 pm by SDREW |
|||||||||
|
Hammerfjord Moderator
|
I know very well that steel can be polished and look like that. But after 40 years it's unlikely that the polishing is looking as bright as that: Forget it. This is old Russian steel: Not the best stainless you can find now. So Mark Gordon is repolishing his polished watch cases before photographies? There's nothing unreal about my model: Every details are closed to exactly like your model, except the case who's in nickeled brass. Just look the pictures again. Yes, my movement is poor in jewels but it's exactly the same who was used by Zlatoust. Now, you very much know that many diver cases was made from nickeled brass back in the time... But never in Russia ? I bought mine from a collector in Switzerland who was claiming that the case was in polished steel: Wrong. My straps is obviously a remake: I know how the originals looks like. And a strap don't make a watch. But if there is a thing I know: It's that no remake/imitation I ever seen is matching my watch. Even on the site of Mark Gordon. I still don't have any answer from the Zlatoust factory but I will have it one day: Question is... Will you like it? |
|||||||||
|
SDREW 3T WIS
|
Yes, there are many cheaper dive models made from brass....but the issue is very simple, the brass Zlatoust is not dive proof.....the steel versions are dive proof to 300m. Many of the later Zlatousts were hardly used, also the underside of the watch being highly polished still is expected, it is against the skin of the wearer....not out in the elements....Zlatousts were not stainless steel, they were steel, nickel was used to stop rusting. I can pull an example of yours, here is the exact same watch as yours!! http://forums.watchuseek.com/f10/my-fake-zlatoust-experience-647026.html |
|||||||||
|
SDREW 3T WIS
|
Zlatoust is not at all affiliated with the old Zlatoust, that factory was destroyed and they no longer the same company...they will not have any information for you. As for information given to me and me not liking it, I couldn't give a monkeys uncle on this, but here is a simple fact, all the brass ones came with the same paperwork, all had the non-radioactive paperwork and the same date(day, month and year) stamped on the paperwork too. The difference between you and I on our purchase is simple, you were mislead by a seller and have resourced your information after the point of purchase, where as I educated myself before my purchase and took a calculated risk with my purchase, I got lucky and you didn't(depending on the price you paid, a nickel plated brass is worth $250-300 perhaps, the steel is worth $850-$2000)....My seller was Italian, he is in his 50's and the watch is from his fathers collection, his father just passed away two month ago. He had two Zlatoust, one his father purchased in the early 1970's and he also had another one his father purchased in the 1980's, the later was much heavier! My purchase was based on factual information on the Government issued Zlatousts, and its based on the weight being around 270grams, steel is lighter than brass, so I based my purchase on the lighter of the two and got the one his father purchased at an earlier date.... Also two sizes for Zlatoust, the earliest were 58mm and not 60mm. The problem with brass is its soft, so to have a screw down bezel for waterproofing the case, well that is not going to hold up as the threading becomes worn very fast and also is easily bent. My Zlatoust is near impossible to unscrew and screw tight, I've had to custom make a part to tighten mine for waterproofing purposes. I didn't come here to argue or be rude, I'm just a messenger of fact based information, it seems you are not interested in anything other than finding something that supports your view that the Zlatoust in your possession was a Soviet military issue item, which it was not....it is a Authentic Zlatoust made for the public, still a very cool time piece, just not the government issued one...be happy you didn't spend $1500 and find brass! I've been collecting vintage for 22years, that's since the age of 15, I'm pretty knowledgeable and well connected, if I don't know something I can get the info. I'm surprised you are so anti-Mark Gordon, seems odd to me that you would take the stance a man who has taken the time to dedicate a site to Russian/soviet issue timepieces, and has 5 versions of the watch we are talking about, is some how a not credible source and is in your eyes is not a credible source....what is the deal mate? Last edited on Tue Nov 27th, 2012 01:51 pm by SDREW |
|||||||||
|
Hammerfjord Moderator
|
SDREW wrote:Yes, there are many cheaper dive models made from brass....but the issue is very simple, the brass Zlatoust is not dive proof.....the steel versions are dive proof to 300m. Many of the later Zlatousts were hardly used, also the underside of the watch being highly polished still is expected, it is against the skin of the wearer....not out in the elements....Zlatousts were not stainless steel, they were steel, nickel was used to stop rusting. Yes, I agree it's like mine. So, who made those ? Because like one of the guy said "Unfortunately, early "tourist divers" were apparently very similar to the original ones. I still think that they were "downgraded" versions, made with the same toolings. " And that's what I was thinking myself... As they match the originals except the brass case, I thought that the Zlatoust factory may have made those cheaper models during the crisis. That's why I wanted an answer from Mr Fedotov at the factory. |
|||||||||
|
SDREW 3T WIS
|
And that's what I was thinking myself... As they match the originals except the brass case, I thought that the Zlatoust factory may have made those cheaper models during the crisis. That's why I wanted an answer from Mr Fedotov at the factory. Your was made by Zlatoust, they made them at the end of the cold war, only for a year or two and then others started making more commercialized versions with the cheesy engravings on the dial and caseback....even some have a sub dial with seconds hand. There is a black finished one that comes up here and there, Mark actually knew the name of it, the SHARK....is the translation from Russian. Sorry if anything I've said is coming off as me being RUDE, its one of the problems with discussions over the web, typed communications are very dry and can come off harsher than intended. I will source more info for you and post it, it will be a great tool for everyone! |
|||||||||
|
Hammerfjord Moderator
|
SDREW wrote:Zlatoust is not at all affiliated with the old Zlatoust, that factory was destroyed and they no longer the same company...they will not have any information for you. Mine is also 58mm as well. I had done some research as well but I got a brass case. Mine weigh 297.2 grams with the huge strap/buckle I have. It certainly would match closely your 270 grams of approval without the straps: The leather is 3mm thick and still when going in the loop, it could fit a 9cm diameter wrist. At list I didn't pay the price of an original steel model: Or even not the half of it. As if it's a public issue: It certainly is. But I wasn't ready to pay the original price and got this one on an auction. Thanks for the info! |
|||||||||
|
Hammerfjord Moderator
|
SDREW wrote:And that's what I was thinking myself... Your was made by Zlatoust, they made them at the end of the cold war, only for a year or two and then others started making more commercialized versions with the cheesy engravings on the dial and caseback....even some have a sub dial with seconds hand. There is a black finished one that comes up here and there, Mark actually knew the name of it, the SHARK....is the translation from Russian. No problem: I get it. Thanks for the precisions. I also have a 50mm titanium Shark: It's not a Zlatoust of course. By the way, Mr Fedotov from Zlatoust was very quick to respond on this one when I asked what it was: Приветствуем Вас! Вы писали 19 сентября 2012 г.: It is NOT Zlatoust watch! ----- B/R Fedotov Sergey info@agatfactory.com Still, I love it...    |
|||||||||
