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Nordstrom 3T WIS 
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I received my email from Poul last night requesting the full payment for the Ocean Explorer. If memory serves the final payment was due prior to shipment, and Poul doesn't have specific information beyond late May or early June. Is anyone else uncomfortable with this? Does anyone have a relationship with Fricker that they could leverage to confirm watch production? Am I being paranoid? The lack of pictures, updates and specifics is frustrating. Of course I am new at this, I haven't purchased a first-run limited edition watch. I'd welcome thoughts from others who have paid deposits on this watch. Thanks, Erik |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS 
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Erik I have seen a few post with a like concern over at WUS now. I pre-paid mine in full but if there are others like wise concerned I can give Poul a call. He is just oh maybe 60 miles to the South of me. Plan is to hook up with him sometime down the road maybe this Summer. But I'll gladly give him a call if you all would like. ;) |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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Poul just posted up replies at WUS so no need to call and bug him. :) In short he is waiting for the latest pics from Fricker and it still looks like end of May shipment for the OE unless other wise advised. ;) |
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hucky 3T WIS 
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Ill make that payment for you and the watch can be sent to me, no worries here goofy perfect.gif |
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Nordstrom 3T WIS
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hucky wrote: Ill make that payment for you and the watch can be sent to me, no worries here goofy perfect.gif Skipdog, have you met Poul? I'm sure he's legit, but this took me off guard a bit. |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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I have not met with or talked to Poul yet, many email and PM conversations. Like I said he is about 60 miles from me and maybe 3 or 4 miles from my kid brother. Next time I go down to visit my kid brother or have a appt at the VA hospital I plan to try to have a coffee sit down with him if possible. |
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IW 3T WIS 
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I'll just give you my opinion as a seller. I hate holding cash for items I don't yet have. Best off getting a non-refundable deposit of 10% or such. That way, there is intent and you are not likely to get screwed. As is seen from many small watch houses, they are at the mercy of many others, so one week turns into one month, yadda yadda. Would you pay a contractor for work done on your house before he's finished? Only material costs. Thus, a deposit seems reasonable here. Just my 2 cents. Thanks- Marc |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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IW wrote: I'll just give you my opinion as a seller. I hate holding cash for items I don't yet have. Best off getting a non-refundable deposit of 10% or such. That way, there is intent and you are not likely to get screwed. As is seen from many small watch houses, they are at the mercy of many others, so one week turns into one month, yadda yadda. Marc very good points. I may just go back to doing things that way. I use to. This pre-order stuff just ties me up to much. If something goes wrong I have lost the chance at to many other good watches. |
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Nordstrom 3T WIS
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IW wrote: I'll just give you my opinion as a seller. I hate holding cash for items I don't yet have. Best off getting a non-refundable deposit of 10% or such. That way, there is intent and you are not likely to get screwed. As is seen from many small watch houses, they are at the mercy of many others, so one week turns into one month, yadda yadda. Exactly...I'm uncomfortable when that the payment terms changed. I don't like to pay in full for work or product that isn't available. Poul said that payment is due "by the end of April or early May", which leaves a lot of wiggle room. He would have been better off by naming a due date. I'm going to hold off for a while and see that happens. |
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duffy0401 3T WIS 
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I paid for both of mine. I can see why you might be a little worried. You just need to do what's best for you. Maybe contact Poul and express your concern. He seems like a good guy. I must say I will feel much better when I see a complete watch and get a delivery date. I'll feel even better when it's on my wrist.yourock.gif  Last edited on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 11:41 am by duffy0401 |
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KenC Admin 
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Sorry guys, IMO his request is bad business and uncalled for...:shock:...while I realize that he has a need to protect hi investment, a 50% deposit (or one needed to cover his investment cost) is appropriate. Payment in full before the watch is ready to be shipped is totally inappropriate from a business standpoint...you are at risk. |
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Eric L. 3T WIS 
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Here is my take as someone who is in a couple preorders - one for the O7 LM-7 and one for the Korsbek OE. From what I can tell, Poul has been very up front with information on the OE, and the final watch appears to be exactly as the Fricker blueprints show it to be, with the exception of some dial fonts sizes. At the price he is asking, and the fact that it ships with a bracelet, and everything is made in Germany - it is a real steal, and I do not mind paying preorder/second full payment to secure this piece. I have no reason to believe Fricker, a well respected company, will not deliver the watch at the end of May. The LM-7 deal on the other hand, has been more complicated. Preorder payments were taken in Aug 2007, and as of today, 9 months later, the watch has not been manufactured yet, and it seems they keep changing the design as an excuse for delaying the production even further. I know they want to make it perfect, but seriously it should not take 4 months between sample cases. There have also been no pictures of the dial, bezel, or details of which movement will be used (it was either ETA 2824-2 or SW200, but I think they will go SW200 to save a few bucks). When this piece is finally made, it will be great, but the entire production process (parts are made in China with an unnamed company that does not commit to production dates like Fricker does) is kept for the most part hidden from the 150 people who have put preorder money down for this piece. To top it off, O7 charges extra for a bracelet. Last edited on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 05:02 pm by Eric L. |
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KenC Admin
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Eric L. wrote: Here is my take as someone who is in a couple preorders - one for the O7 LM-7 and one for the Korsbek OE. I have no problem with deposits large enough to insure that preorders will be fulfilled...I also have no problem with deposits large enough to cover manufacturing costs so that if the order is canceled, the marketer does not lose money on the deal...I DO HAVE A PROBLEM with payment in full before the product is ready to ship. It is an inappropriate and unreasonable requirement. |
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Chick Hazzard 3T WIS 
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I agree with Ken, but it always comes down to how bad you want it, and what will you do to get it. I was one of the first 100 to get the Kobold Seal, and it took several months past the original promised date to get it. They supposedly gave me a "gift" valued at $250.00 for my wait, but it was only a couple of extra leather straps valued at $250.00. If you want it, just pay by credit card, and wait. If there is a problem, I'm sure he will refund your money, if not the cc company will. |
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IW 3T WIS
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That's the truth! The vendor has zero recourse in a situation like this. Chick Hazzard wrote: I'm sure he will refund your money, if not the cc company will. |
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KenC Admin
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IW wrote: That's the truth! The vendor has zero recourse in a situation like this. Yes...if in fact, the cc holder follows Federal regulation and files a written complaint within 60 days of the initial billing, however, refund is NOT written in stone. There is also a limitation as to the distance you are from the vendor. BUYER BEWARE Credit Card Disputes What are billing errors? Billing errors include:
How do I correct errors? You have 60 days from the date of the statement with the billing error, to write to your credit card company. Send your letter to the address listed on your credit card statement for billing errors and inquiries. Include your name, account number, and the date and amount of the error. Explain in your letter why the billing is wrong. Request proof of purchase if that is the issue. Send your letter certified mail return receipt requested for proof of delivery. Do I have to pay the disputed amount? No. You can withhold payment of the amount in dispute and the finance charge on that amount until the card company investigates the dispute. You can also withhold the interest payment on the disputed amount. You must pay the amounts that are not in dispute. What does the credit-card company have to do? They must acknowledge receipt of your letter within 30 days. Within 90 days, or two billing cycles, they must investigate your dispute. They must correct their mistake or explain to you in writing why the bill is correct. If you request proof of a purchase, they must provide it to you. If the credit card company doesn't follow these procedures, they cannot collect the amount you disputed or charge interest on that amount. The credit card company cannot close your account just because you file a dispute. What if they don’t correct the error? If your claim is denied, or it is a dispute over merchandise or services that are defective or not delivered, you may be able to file a claim under Claims and Defenses. Can the credit card company take action against me if I refuse to pay? They can begin normal collection activities, such as referring the disputed amount to a collection agency, or suing you in court. If you are contacted by a collection agency, send them a letter explaining why you feel you do not owe the money. A collection agency must stop contacting you if you send them a letter telling them not to contact you again. Send all letters by certified mail, return receipt requested, and keep a copy of the letter for your records. If they file suit against you, you should seek legal assistance. If you file an answer to the lawsuit, you can appear in court and explain why you feel the billing is wrong. The credit-card company can only report you to a credit-reporting agency if: 1) You actually owe the amount you disputed, or 2) They sue you in court and win. Claims and Defenses Sometimes you have a dispute over goods or services that were defective or not delivered. If you paid for these on your credit card and the merchant will not resolve the problem, you can file a dispute with the credit card company using a procedure called, Claims and Defenses. What are claims and defenses? Claims and defenses are any valid reasons you have for not paying a certain credit card charge. They include billing errors, unauthorized charges, and claims that goods or services were misrepresented, defective, or not delivered. The credit card company can be held responsible under Federal law (15 USC 1666i). How do I assert claims and defenses? You assert your claims and defenses by writing to the credit card company showing that you tried to resolve the problem with the store directly but they refused to remedy the problem. Tell them you are withholding payment until the problem is resolved. Are there any limitations on raising claims and defenses? Yes. In order to assert claims and defenses, the purchase must have been made in the same state you live in, or within 100 miles of your home. Also, the amount of the disputed charge must be more than $50. If the credit card company and the business honoring the card are connected, for example, a department store honoring its own credit card, this limitation does not apply. This also applies to advertisements that were included in your credit card statement. If I’ve already paid the disputed amount on my credit card, can I still raise my claims and defenses? No. Once you pay the disputed amount, you cannot assert claims and defenses. If you paid only part of the disputed amount, you can still put a claim in for the remaining balance owed. Can I use claims and defenses for purchases made on the telephone? Yes. If you fall victim to a fraudulent telemarketer, who charges your credit card for worthless vacations, investments, or other goods or services, you can use the claims and defenses procedure to dispute these phony charges. Can I assert claims and defenses if I place an order by phone with a company in another state? If the company contacted you by phone, the law states that the purchase took place where you received the call. If you feel the charge is fraudulent, you can refuse to pay and can assert your claims and defenses. If you contacted the out-of-state company by phone, the purchase is usually considered to have taken place at their location. In that case, you could not assert your claims and defenses. Is there a time limit for asserting claims and defenses? If you sue for the amount in dispute, you must do so within one year of the purchase. However, if the credit card issuer or the retailer sues you, you can raise your claims and defenses at anytime. |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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In most cases I do not buy in advance like this. I tend to only bend my own rules when going after a limited editions though. Yes it can be risky but what in life isn't anymore? |
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KenC Admin
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Skipdawg wrote: In most cases I do not buy in advance like this. I tend to only bend my own rules when going after a limited editions though. Yes it can be risky but what in life isn't anymore? Wearing a Kevlar vest while sitting in a Tank!  |
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hucky 3T WIS
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KenC wrote: Skipdawg wrote:In most cases I do not buy in advance like this. I tend to only bend my own rules when going after a limited editions though. Yes it can be risky but what in life isn't anymore? |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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KenC wrote: Skipdawg wrote:In most cases I do not buy in advance like this. I tend to only bend my own rules when going after a limited editions though. Yes it can be risky but what in life isn't anymore? hehehehe I could still nail ya Ken. LOL :cool: |
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KenC Admin
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Skipdawg wrote: KenC wrote:Skipdawg wrote:In most cases I do not buy in advance like this. I tend to only bend my own rules when going after a limited editions though. Yes it can be risky but what in life isn't anymore? Skippy...it would be a long shot, both literally and figuratively from where you Sawbbies sit off-shore. |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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Yea Ken I think it would be more fun to just drool over watches and drink some good cold beer. yourock.gif |
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scottran 3T WIS 
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This whole conversation amazes me. I wish I could get my customers to pay me today for a transmission that I will rebuild months from now. ;) I have people offer to put money down when I start on their transmissions but I always refuse. I dont feel right taking their money until the job is done. Its real simple... if they dont pay, they dont get their car. If you are going into business and dont have the startup money to get your product out then you should think twice about even starting. just MHO as a selfemployed businessman for the past 14 going on 15 years. |
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b2s 3T WIS 
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I agree with what Ken have already said. Regardless, I paid it in full. My gut feeling tells me that I can trust this guy. Of course, I have been wrong so many times. :D Can't wait for a confirmed delivery date announcement. :dude: Last edited on Fri Apr 25th, 2008 12:24 pm by b2s |
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oagaspar Site Founder 
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imho I don't have any problem paying as Poul seems to be an upright person,e-mails updates regularly and it is a Awesome watch which I don't believe he is making much $ onhand6.gif I do however believe it is better business as far as appearances are concerned to avoid any raised eyebrows as presented here and to have the product ready in hand and completely checked over for quality before asking for final $ as this not only shows your company is lucrative but confident in that product as well yourock.gif. ..in my experience when someone starts looking for $ before the job is done they are hurting for $ and need it to finish...which is fine with me as long as I know where to find them ;) |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote: imho I don't have any problem paying as Poul seems to be an upright person,e-mails updates regularly and it is a Awesome watch which I don't believe he is making much $ onhand6.gif Well Oscar I know exactly where the address on his website is. I lived about 3 miles Southeast of that location for awhile but lived in the Seattle area 1988 to 1999 and know my way around well and still have family and friends there. But I too feel good about Poul. I lived there 1968 to 1972 also as a kid. :cool: ;) |
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esantelli 3T WIS
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I have also prepaid for the OE and am anxiously awaiting it's arrival. I believe that this is a new experience for Poul and he is in fact feeling his way throiugh, my guess is that in his enthusiasm to offer a topnotch product he is overextended, or atleast working on a razors edge. There is little in his behavoir so far to suggest that he nothing but above board, responds to his email,post production images and seems genuinely interested in feedback. I consider this a relatively minimal risk. I ordered a Bill Yao Seafighter mod and paided him in full, is that a risk as well ?? some might suggest it is, but I feel very comfortable with it. The Korsbek OE has the potential to be one of the great watch values. eds |
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KenC Admin
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esantelli wrote: I have also prepaid for the OE and am anxiously awaiting it's arrival. 1) I am not saying that Poul is not to be trusted. I cannot, and as I do not know him...I am speaking in general terms only regarding business in general and am not disparaging any individual 2) That said, and again in general terms, con-artists always give you a warm and fuzzy feeling. That's their job....look at all the people JS (aka Corona Gorda) took to the cleaners. 3) Your example of Bill Yao is a different story...he is well know in the WUS community as a craftsman and a man of integrity. Additionally, he has been in the "watch" business for years, and he has established his reputation as one who delivers by consistantly delivering on his commitments.! |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Skipdawg wrote: oagaspar wrote:imho I don't have any problem paying as Poul seems to be an upright person,e-mails updates regularly and it is a Awesome watch which I don't believe he is making much $ onhand6.gif Ty Skip....but I fully trust Poul and see no need for any worry whatsoevercool10.gif |
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Nordstrom 3T WIS
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Skipdawg wrote: oagaspar wrote:imho I don't have any problem paying as Poul seems to be an upright person,e-mails updates regularly and it is a Awesome watch which I don't believe he is making much $ onhand6.gif Skip, it gives me a warm feeling inside knowing that you can play bounty hunter if the need arises. I can just see you busting down the door and walking out with a fist full of watches to send to your 3T colleagues. |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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Nordstrom wrote: Skipdawg wrote: :cool: Hehehehehehe :D  |
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duffy0401 3T WIS
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Looks like Poul will have a little more info from Fricker on Monday. |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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duffy0401 wrote: Looks like Poul will have a little more info from Fricker on Monday. Yea. :) And I think he is doing rather well with Fricker. With all this going on right around the Basel Event also you know they are very busy. So if he can pull this off on schedule that will say allot too. ;) |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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update from Poul...one of the really Good Guys!hand6.gif..I don't see anyone wanting a refund on this Awesome watch imhoyourock.gif Greetings, I have gotten a couple of emails regarding the final payment for the OE. The only reason that I emailed out the final payment was that many of my customers were eager to pay off their balance. I have no problem for the rest that wants to wait until they see pictures of the final product, before they make the final payment. If you decide against the OE, then I will of course reimburse you the downpayment plus shipping. I only want your 100% satisfaction. If you have any concerns please send my an email. I always respond back to you. Best regards, __________________ Poul Brix Poulsen Korsbek Watch Company http://korsbek.com |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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Yes indeed that is awesome and very profesional. I look forward for a chance to sit down with him over a cup of coffee some day. ;) |
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Nordstrom 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote: update from Poul...one of the really Good Guys!hand6.gif..I don't see anyone wanting a refund on this Awesome watch imhoyourock.gif That was a great note, and one that makes me feel much better about the situation. Thanks for sharing that Oscar. E |
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KenC Admin
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Well done on the part of Korsbek!!! |
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Crue4 3T WIS 
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And I am #2 on the waiting list for any of those that drop out... come on please 2 folks drop out! |
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