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oagaspar Site Founder 
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every once in a great while a master watchmaker comes up with a few as precise to original pieces that represent the very best of an Homage that dates back and are hard to find or too expesnive for most to own....so he builds one using the same specs and as close to exact size and uses a movement as close as possible to tjhe original and creates this masterpiece imo....a true Homge as close as anyone can find that looks exactly like the original aandthis is one of those imho!...behold the 40's Panny Militray watch in this link.... http://cgi.ebay.de/HOMAGE-PAM-3646-KAMPFSCHWIMMER-FROGMAN-CORTEBERT-616_W0QQitemZ120518931846QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item1c0f7cf586 |
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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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Well, Oscar, I bought myself a Cortebert 616 not so long ago: Got it on the Bay for 500$ in auction. It's thrue that those MVTs are getting more and more expensives due to Pamy fans. I follow them regulary on the Bay on they rarely sell under 1000$ now. Luckyly, mine was in very good estate and I plan to make a Pam homage with it. It is, as we know, easy to put the hand on some great cases to mount the all thing. I got my cases for around 80$ when they have sapphire glass and cristal back. Those with plexi are a bit cheaper: But still, until now, I never found a case who was as nice as this one I purchased from a US guy on the bay: It's a plexi but the all case is great   I had it for 250 buks if I remember well... Anyway, this homage you present is at 5000$:shock::shock::shock: He aged his dial by maybe deeping it in tea or painting it with a rusty water paint, scratched his case like hell to make it look older and oiled his old strap with black polish... Mine will maybe cost me 800$ with my 500$ mvt(custom pam minute/hour hands for the Cortebert cost 100$)... But I want it in a homage 47mm Pam 1950 as I want to hold on the second visor if possible(I allready got the case). The only trouble can be the pam dial fitting with the second hand of the Cortebert: My watchmaker didn't check that as he worked on other projects. The mounting isn't so hard as the 616 fit in a 47mm case: A good watchmaker can fix you a little brass/steel ring if needed... Thanks for the info Oscar but from my point of view ,this Italian is way out of his mind with his 5000$... Buy yourself a Cortebert mvt and patiently build your own Kampfschwimmer homage: I garantie you that you'll stay under 2000 buks. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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This guy been reading my post or what?:D He changed his annonce today from 5000$/best-offer to 1500$ bid-opening/4000$ buy it now: http://cgi.ebay.com/HOMAGE-PAM-3646-KAMPFSCHWIMMER-FROGMAN-CORTEBERT-616_W0QQitemZ120521239996QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item1c0fa02dbc#ht_500wt_1182 |
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Graham 3T WIS 
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The attention to detail is amazing. The price is too!:shock: |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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This one is the top exemple of it's kind on the Bay: On sell since months... With a nice tourbillon from the Republic Popular:D You got a better deal with the Cortebert at 1500$. Even those 616 mvts was selling at 100-300 buks few years ago... http://cgi.ebay.com/RADIOMIR-TOURBILLON-THE-ULTIMATE-PANERAI-HOMAGE-RARE_W0QQitemZ200426954400QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item2eaa609ea0#ht_773wt_1165 |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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as with any watch it's value comes down to who the watchmaker is....there are many Panny homages on the web that sell for much less due to who made them....in the case of the 40's Panny in my link ,this one was made by a well known master whos watches are collectible and very rare on their own as he made it to the exact specs of the original right down to the detail of making it look aged and only made a handful which sold out in minutes 5-6 years ago....he is known as the 1st to duplicate vintage watches in the form of homage opposed to replica which even 5-6 years ago were not welcomed in this hobby and frowned upon as replicas even though they did not carry the original brand names.... it is not until recent years that homages have become accepted in this hobby and there are some enthusiasts including myself who still frown upon some homages such as the Marina Militare as being replicas and not homages ....this hobby is changing and even in the world of homages there is rich history to be discovered! hand6.gif |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I am, on my side, not attracted by scratched cases and paint rusted dials. Every one got his taste but I don't want to pretend as I got a watch on my wrist who been through all storms and bad treatments with sea-water leakages during 60 years. I guess that a Pam from this century period who would have been preserved in a safe until now and who would be in outstanding NOS estate, would be even more priceless than the ones who are rusted because it's impossible to find..? In my eyes, the rust or scratches can't prove the battle anyway... You should have a document who certifie that the watch was in action...? My homage will be clean as it could be when it was going on the wrists of the war-heroes on the first day: It will not be as the one they had, it will be a modern stuff. In my knowledge, nobody replicate the old sandwich dials who got nothing to do with the new ones we see around anyway: look here http://cgi.ebay.com/Genuine-Vintage-Panerai-3646-RADIOMIR-Dial-3-piece_W0QQitemZ280452880434QQcmdZViewItemQQptZWristwatches?hash=item414c4b5832#ht_1124wt_1165 A little story... When I was in Mexico in 93, I've been proposed false aged poteries as all tourists. I prefer a nice clean copy than something who's filled of cracks/dirt, made up the day before or I buy the real deal...Real is real, false is false, even you fool your friends with it, you don't fool yourself... I was about to buy the real deal to a Maya Indian from the mountains near Mitla but I was risking years of prison if caught on the customs so I never bought it and that was for the best. My meaning is just that I don't want any maked-up/false aged watch on my wrist. Those homages are in fact, in my eyes, copies of old ones: Not homages. In my opinion, an homage don't pretend to be an original... As for the watch-master thing Oscar, here's my view of the term: You are a watch-master when you can create in part or totally your own movement. An excellent mechanic and steal-worker/gold-smith can build a case with the right tools and some talent: But the movements-building skills are unique to a watch-master. To scratch cases,weld lugs and tint dials requiers no mastergrade to me: I got the same crown "Brevet#" on my Kampf' also... He took down his price from 5000 buks to 1500: It tells me everything about his watch as his new price is more representative of a today's cost if you make it yourself with a 1000buks mvt(still they don't need to cost as much as that...) A last thing: If this watch got so many references from a watchmaster and is made to only few pieces to exact specs: Why do the guy don't name it in his listing to save his own greedy butt? Also his reference link is down...Too bad because I was interested about this link.:? But I agree on one thing: It's the need of people who set the price. Not allways the real value;) |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Will in the world of Homages and Replicas there are many well know watchmakers who are known to only those who collected or commisioned them...not everyone is willing to release the name nor will as it was taboo to make these watches let alone own one not that long ago as I mentioned...I can say the person who made this particular Panny homage is among the best and his re-creations are much sought after by those who know him and his work and that in itself is a small group of WIS....btw this particular homage is being copied by others on the web with Asian/Swiss Unitas and sold for anywhere between $150.-$900. ...that's how good it was and they still haven't come close to achieving the quality of this homage in any way to date ;)....here is a look at the original ...not the same as linked in the eBayers addy as it doen't seem to be working and that one is the best I have seen but this will do for now....in order to make a 1:1 copy of a watch the original is needed to do so and it is my understanding it was when these handful were made...the world of watches is as secretive a business as any and when you are around long enough to gain contacts and do plenty of research you will find that there is a whole world of WIS into collecting watches off the beaten path.:) How about this for a rare gem in the chrono world? Back in the day, Rolex used to make the very in the now, thanks to Stallone, Panerai Radiomir, for the Italian Navy. We’re talking like in the 1940’s. It is clearly not as refined as what we see today from Panerai, but these were the days of, well, we’ll let Hodinkee tell it. "The brand Panerai, known now as the archetypal New Yorker watch, was once a lowly producer of boring technical equipment (compasses, depth gauges, and the like) until 1935 when they somehow landed a contract with the Italian navy to develop watches that could be read underwater. Being that Officine Panerai had never produced a time-telling device at all, you can imagine who they turned to….Rolex. Released in 1938 only to the Italian Navy, Officine Panerai produced diving watches called the "Radiomir" with movements, cases, and crowns all made by Rolex." More images of this fine timepiece after the jump.   AKPC_IDS += "324,"; |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Thanks for the pics O! Yes I know that it's a secret world and I can live without the name or nick-name of this guy... I observed somes around and they keep themself out of any reach most of time. This is due, I think, to the fact that Panerai been giving a real hard time to RXW in the past and I understand fully them concern. Well, we need watches for all tastes and my taste isn't universal;) At list, this common interest makes possible to most of us, the buy of some great parts of fully mounted watches. Let's just hope that the fever of all new Pam-fans who's growing up, will not push ridiculously the prices up. As I saw in only one year that the 616 mvts's prices on the Bay been doubled...:? Because it will be open door to abuse and destroy the opportunity to many of having homages with vintage movements. |
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Johnny P Advisor 
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speaking of homages http://www.bodying.com/all-brand-watches.php/watch_brand/DOXA/sort/2/page/2 |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Johnny P wrote:speaking of homages Those guys are nuts, nothing stop them |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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the original link to the genuine historic Radiomir is now working....it sold for $79,000. a while back...hand6.gif http://www.watches24seven.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=1987 |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Yes I ever saw some originals like that: Here's a good link also http://panerai.watchprosite.com/?show=forumpost&fi=717&ti=463631&s=0 If you look closely, the Cortebert 616 has some important bride-shapes differences compare to the Rolex mvt presented in your link and mine Oscar.;) I think that I found out who made the homage who's presented on the Bay because I saw some of his other jobs who was very similars. I am personnaly still not convinced and as I can't afford a real one from the time, I will still content myself with some shiny homage with clean dial :) |
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OldeCrow 3T WIS 
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There is a HK company that specializes in aftermarket bridges for the vintage Cortebert and russian and unitas complete with branding and serials etc of your choice among other homage parts. Can't find the link to the website anymore but truth be told the Cortebert is not that hard to find and the aftermarket bridges are not hard to find and these panny homages are not hard to build. There's a few hundred bucks worth of parts there, even counting labor it would be a good deal somewhere well under 1k. There is something strangely hypnotic about a wabi'ed panny though!  |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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found this one under the bed :D. Attachment: 031.JPG (Downloaded 43 times) |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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This one was just "olded" enough for my taste What's the beater inside? |
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Devin 3T WIS 
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oagaspar wrote:found this one under the bed :D. Wow i need to start looking under my bed!:shock: very cool looking Oscar! |
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murphy j 3T WIS 
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oagaspar wrote: found this one under the bed :D. As much as I dislike larger than 42mm watches, but I must say that on this one I'm very envious and I hate you :D:D:D. |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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Very good thread! I enjoyed reading it and learning from the exchange among gentlemen. Just my inputs as an amateur collector and only my opinion: when it comes to homages I set a US$1,000 top limit for it. Beyond that price point, I either look for something else worth owning or hunt down the real thing. An homage is nice to have and nice to wear..... once in a while.... but as a daily watch, nothing beats owning and wearing the real thing. It's like having a pin-up of Jessica Alba in the garage or toolshed...........nice to look at, nice to have.....but it's not the real Jessica Alba  . |
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