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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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Ok guys, it´s just out today(15th nov. 2011) and was approved the 11th november by a Commission but it would be ruled from the spring 2012 as told there: "The National Council will probably rule on the Swissness project during the spring 2012 session. Thereafter, the project will go before the Council of States." So it's apparently not efficient yet but the minimum "Swissness" on watches bearing the "Swiss-Made" label, would be of 60% on quartz and 80% on mechanical watches...   http://www.fhs.ch/en/news/news.php?id=923 |
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oagaspar Site Founder 
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it failed last time it was brought to ruling Will...and that may happen again... |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:it failed last time it was brought to ruling Will...and that may happen again... I remember but politicians are changing and the European crisis may have an effect on the decision to create more employments in Switzerland... |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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I guess this just means, a WIS should really trust his brand a lot more, IMHO. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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bigrustypig wrote: I guess this just means, a WIS should really trust his brand a lot more, IMHO.I agree 100% Jeff!....in todays Swiss Made market,trust is everything,once that is established it's a guarantee a well made watch will follow imho...it's a shame so many new companies try to mask the truth.  |
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Johnny P Advisor 
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oagaspar wrote:bigrustypig wrote:I guess this just means, a WIS should really trust his brand a lot more, IMHO.I agree 100% Jeff!....in todays Swiss Made market,trust is everything,once that is established it's a guarantee a well made watch will follow imho...it's a shame so many new companies try to mask the truth. So true buy the brand instead of the SWISS MADE label that's a thing of the past. IMO  |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Johnny P wrote: oagaspar wrote:without a doubt Johnny!....be aware of "WOLVES" in sheeps clothing!  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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The actual problem is there also: "In the current ordinance, the Swiss movement already has a value criterion in addition to assembly and final inspection within the country, namely the rate of 50%." For sure, to buy the brand itself is the best choice but let's not forget that some brands are changing hands: Should we trust Eterna as much as before since it's Chinese owned? Time will show for those who want to try... Deception already happened with original Swiss brands who opened Asian factories to lower them fabrication cost but still are selling at the same price. The actual laws are making it easy for those bought/exported brands to lower the cost without passing it on the costumer and also cutting down on the quality: Still living on them old name, reputation and price. That's why this law has to change: Because it legalized decadence of originally good brands who became greedy even the mechanical watch era has never been doing so good. |
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afc14284 3T WIS 
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I agree 100% in your thoughts Will.. although it's part of the modern way to do business (outsourcing to asian based companies) in order to be competitive, it's a slap in the face for a company that used to do all its parts and components in Switzerland to be charging the same or in some cases, more for watches that certainly don't have the same built quality as before.. I really respect the "swiss made" legend.. although right now I don't know really who to trust, I think that if the Swiss really become strict to whom they allow to sell watches "swiss made" then we would be able to trust a company and pay how much they are charging if the said company would guarantee that we were getting what we're paying for.. Also, if this were to happen it wouldn't be the end of the world for people that couldn't afford to pay for a really Swiss Made Watch.. with German watches really coming out with wonderful pieces, micro brands selling Swiss movements on asian based cases, Miyota and Seiko movements getting better and better and so forth, give us a whole variety of watches to choose from that compete and sometimes, even beat, Swiss made watches.. Just my 0.02 cents.... |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Some news! http://www.fhs.ch/en/news/news.php?id=962  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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And it passed! Soon, many unscrupulous watch companies can forget about enjoying the "Swiss-Made" label http://www.fhs.ch/en/news/news.php?id=968 |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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  Last edited on Mon Mar 19th, 2012 12:02 pm by Hammerfjord |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I mailed Mr J-D Pasche(The "Federation of the Swiss watch industry" President) who answered me the next day, explaining that after the positive vote from the first government chamber about the Swissness project, they are now waiting for the decision of the second government chamber. From then, The Federation will ask a minimum 60% Swiss-Made law for the quartz watches and a 80% for the mechanicals. At the origin, the Swissness project demand a 60% Swiss-Made minimum for any industrial Swiss production but the different branches there could ask for a higher Swissness percentage: As the Swiss watch industry will do. So the battle isn't won yet as I thought but it's half way to say it like that. From my point of view, there is great chances for that the whole project comes through as the politicians already showed them good will with the first vote. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Case moving forward: The legal affairs comity of the national council ruled for 60% "Swissness" The process goes very slow but it still looks positive http://www.fhs.ch/en/news/news.php?id=1052 Swiss jobs must stay in Switzerland National Council's decision (January 16, 2013) By approving a minimum rate of 60 per cent of Swiss value for industrial products, the Legal Affairs Committee of the National Council is defending jobs in Switzerland. The Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry (FH), whose members include more than 500 small, medium and large enterprises, applauds this important decision for the «Swissness» project. Rather than seeing more and more jobs relocated to China, Switzerland needs jobs in Switzerland. By its decision of 11 January, the Legal Affairs Committee of the National Council is helping the FH to preserve its 53,000 jobs in Switzerland on a long-term basis, including 1,000 apprenticeship places. With regard to industrial products, including watches in particular, the Legal Affairs Committee allows in the «Swissness» project that at least 60 per cent of the cost price must be manufactured in Switzerland. Research and development costs can now also be included in the calculation. With this stance, the Legal Affairs Committee of the National Council opposes the decision by the Council of States of 10 December 2012, which approved a 50% rule for industrial products. Today, watches produced almost entirely in China are sold legally under the Swiss made label. This is an abuse which the present decision challenges. In the context of Parliamentary deliberations, the 60% rule is also opposed by firms that have 90% of their jobs in Asia. This must change. Many small, medium and large enterprises affiliated to the FH are committed to maintaining the existence of an industrial fabric of manufacturers and subcontractors in Switzerland. A strong and credible Swiss brand creates jobs throughout the value creation chain, among both watch manufacturers and subcontractors, which will also make it possible to develop and strengthen production in Switzerland over the long term. A well protected Swiss brand also prevents foreign companies from buying Swiss watch firms, relocating production to foreign countries at low wages, and despite everything selling their products legally under the Swiss made label. Implementation of the «Swissness» project will not stop the work process from continuing in countries where wages are lower, nor the import of replacement parts from such countries. However the Swiss made label must no longer be misused. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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The unwillingness of the Economiesuisse in the Swissness project proposed and conducted by FH(Federation of Swiss watch industry) is creating a split. My own opinion(and it's my own) is that a part of the Swiss lobby is profiting of the Chinese deals or manufacturing deportation from Switzerland and wants to hold on it's financial advantages... Set me on fire for saying out loud what people whisper.... I let you make your own opinion. The FH is not giving up and the fight is not over: I wish them luck as always. Paradoxal enough, the Economisuisse present itself as "The defenders of the Swiss employment" . Yeah, right. Still refusing the 60% Swissness project who would create great amount of working places in Switzerland since the horology market is growing strong those last years. Maybe they use chinese calculators who works backward...Who knows. http://www.economiesuisse.ch/en/Pages/default.aspx http://www.fhs.ch/en/news/news.php?id=1089 Economiesuisse The FH Gives Notice For The End Of 2013 (February 28, 2013) The Federation of the Swiss Watch Industry resigns from economiesuisse with effect from the end of 2013. By a decision of its Board taken on 21 February 2013, the FH will step down from economiesuisse at the end of 2013. The decision will enter into force on 1st January 2014. FH Board members took this decision because they are dissatisfied with the performance and position of economiesuisse on the issue of Swissness. By failing to support the Federal Council’s proposal for industrial products, which sets at 60% the minimum rate of Swiss value in a Swiss product, economiesuisse not only stands in the way of strengthening the protection of this label, but raises the likelihood of it becoming weaker than it is at present. That position runs counter to the interests of the Swiss watch industry, which militates very actively in favour of a strong "Swiss" brand in order to maintain its credibility in Switzerland and worldwide. The watch industry is certainly the industrial sector most affected by this subject, considering that nearly 100% of its products carry the label. The latter contributes to the attractiveness of Swiss watches and their psychological appeal. Strengthening of the Swiss made label generally promotes industrial activity in Switzerland and job creation. For all these reasons, the Board feels that the FH no longer has a place in economiesuisse. Nonetheless, the Board does remain open to dialogue with economiesuisse. The FH wishes to make it clear however that the divergence of opinion does not concern the Minder initiative. Like all Swiss economic circles, including economiesuisse which is leading the campaign, the FH is opposed to the Minder initiative and supports the counterproposal. For more informations Jean-Daniel Pasche, President 032 328 08 28 jdpasche@fhs.ch |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Victory: After six years of debate and pressure , the FH and it's followers in the Swiss government won this long and hard battle. The minimum rate of Swiss value for industrial products is applicable to 60% from now since both chambers of the Swiss parliament came to the final agreement who was needed. http://www.fhs.ch/en/news/news.php?id=1172 After six years of work, Parliament this morning passed the Swissness bill, which sets at 60% the minimum rate of Swiss value for Swiss industrial products. On this basis, the authorities will be able to drive forward plans to strengthen the Swiss made label in the watch industry. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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9% increase is unfortunately not going to change anything Will,especially since the the high end Swiss market that has complied to these regulations,and even higher in percentage have raised prices 35% several times in as many years...there will be the same way around this 60% as there was when it was 51% for those who have been doing so in the past. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Fact is that it will purify down the line a bit: With those who was exploiting the limit to it's frontier. It's an open door at list: The fight was for 60% on quartz watches and 80% on mechanical. It's not over yet and since it's in progress, we can hope a for better rate in the future. Don't forget that this new law never been concerning the high-end but rather the low-end who abused of the previous law. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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80% is a long way off and it would be best for all imho,but the best so far is the Hyaks/Swatch shutting the door to eta movements...this alone has made it harder for the Asian manufacturers as the eta movement is no longer an easy asset to obtain,however the Swinese movements that fall between the 60% have opened another door...imo a SWISS MADE watch should at least house a 100% Swiss Made movement. |
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OldeCrow 3T WIS 
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It's about time! A nations "brand" is as important as any other brand name in terms of protecting it and establishing minimum standards for a product to carry the brand name. It would be nice to see the Swiss Made brand carry some weight again! Devils Advocate: I don't think Hamilton quality has suffered with some or all of its manufacturing being done in HK... Last edited on Mon Jun 24th, 2013 05:54 pm by OldeCrow |
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OldeCrow 3T WIS
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Oscar, I don't understand, after the big race between Rolex and Swatch to buy up all the EU watch manufacturing and consolidate it under one roof at least Swatch and Rolex should be able to easily guarantee 100% Swiss Made If they wanted to!? There is certainly a market for it! |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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OldeCrow wrote: Oscar, I don't understand, after the big race between Rolex and Swatch to buy up all the EU watch manufacturing and consolidate it under one roof at least Swatch and Rolex should be able to easily guarantee 100% Swiss Made If they wanted to!? There is certainly a market for it!I agree Chris...and asaik Rolex is 100%,but there have been rumors that even some of the big brands ie: Vacheron Constantine, have been cutting corners with Asian cases finished in Switzerland?...food for thought;if a Swiss manufacture is operating in HK under the same methods(machinery,and watchmakers) as in Switzerland what makes the end product differ?  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Rolex 100% Swiss-made? They never guaranteed it officialy or advertized it: Even they are the king of world advertising by far and could easily have used it as a great selling tool. They never did: Why? I was told that it was them and Swatch-group who was making a blockage those last years to keep the 50% law running. Why so if Rolex are 100% ? I was first surprised but it's no big secret that it's been suspected since long, except by the fanatics who confuse this brand with god's work... They could have get parts from Asia during years without lifting suspicion: Parts like bracelets, hands, dial parts, gaskets, crystals, crowns, bezels&inserts, raw cases etc... Showing videos of assembly or finishing in Switzerland is no proof of 100% Swiss-made to me: Especially when you produce a million pieces a year and that you keep everything secret with a "Fort Knox" politic as they are known for. On my side, I would bet that the Tudors are made with parts from the east. When you see that them new factory is robotized with efficiency beyond limits known by watchmaking and that the prices are rising up at the same time, you coul'd think that they finally get some parts only made at home: After all those years passed with many mysterious suppliers... Also Soprod who was widely finishing Swiss movements for Panerai have a factory in Hong-kong and so on.... My watchmaker saw as well that Omega was having dials made in Thailand etc... Many have dirty hands but hey: They never broke the law, isn't it??? |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Rolex doesn't have to advertise 100% Swiss much like Patek doesn't because it is implied with the brand...Rolex has the largest,most state of the art watch facility in the world Will...in Switzerland...why would they need to produce or source parts from Asia? |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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oagaspar wrote:Rolex doesn't have to advertise 100% Swiss much like Patek doesn't because it is implied with the brand...Rolex has the largest,most state of the art watch facility in the world Will...in Switzerland...why would they need to produce or source parts from Asia? Yes, it's implied as you say... Implied is what people think: It don't mean that it's 100% real. Yes they have this new facility: It opened the 16th october 2012. I know about it and been writing about it here before:http://www.fhs.ch/en/news/news.php?id=1031 Prices been rising at the same period as well: Surprisingly enough since them watch production is the world's most efficient and that them cost is falling down to frontiers no manufactures can reach in Switzerland. Don't tell me that they needed money to build it: 1) They didn't need this factory absolutely. 2) If they didn't have the fonds for it, it would never have been born. Maybe the prices went up because more parts than ever are made by them now. But also meaning now that more robots than humans are making your new Rolex. Let's considerate that now everything is in-house... If so? Because in this article I post, you can read "..the brand designs and manufactures in-house all of the essential components of its watches." Essential components: Means not all, but the main ones to me. I doubt that they manufacture them crystals or gaskets for example... But who does? Anyway: Seems like the only thing thats counts is what is "implied". And before that new factory? As I was saying: They apparently had many suppliers... What was made in Switzerland then? All of it? Don't believe so. And Tudor? All the price difference between a Tudor and a Rolex is only based on the movement? ETA or in-house? This same world´s most efficiently factory built Rolex movement which has a cost certainly reduced to ETA levels or right above by now...? If you knew how low is the cost for a Sub to be built right now, you would certainly be shocked. I don't know this cost: It's certainly more guarded than anything else in Switzerland. I can observe everywhere that this cost is also implied by the consumer. Of course: This new 60% law will not hurt the biggest brands. It never was meant to do that. It was meant to break the back of those who only had a Swiss movement inside them Asian watches and was even pushing it by having them mounted in Asia. That's what the FH wanted to hurt at first. The "Made in Swiss" joke. To tell them: If you want to continue, you will have to use more Swiss labor. It may be a small start but every milestone counts in this direction. For the little quote, Patek is far to stand in the same game as Rolex Oscar... At every levels, even from what people imply or the real facts about production. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Patek and Rolex are mentioned in the same breath at every major watch auction as they are the 2 brands that consistently bring in the large dollars!...just because you despise Rolex should not cloud your judgement Will...Rolex is the leader in R&D and have led the way in more advancements in the industry that any other brand....do you think Rolex could not build a highly complicated movement as Patek?..WRONG!...they have and can all day long my friend. ... take some time to do some real research and you will see how 60% will change notta and this percentage is probably going to stand a very long time because any higher would hurt the Swiss economy that relies on the watch industry... Asian companies are buying up Swiss brands such as the recent purchase of Corum by Haldian Holdings Limited of China...there are many Asian manufactures that can provide the Swiss Made label to smaller brands coming out of HK/China for a fee,along with that there are also home based assembly shops within Switzerland that provide the same service...this is fact. ...while the Swiss houses claim Swiss Made because of their location it doesn't change the fact that many have locations in the Far East as well that produce parts that are then finished in Switzerland,so if the big brands are not affected by this ruling ,then why don't they just make it 100% and be done with it....until then it will be business as usual imho. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I just mean that Rolex and Patek.P are 2 very different houses: One is a mass production house , the other has a limited production. Rolex never been considered in the same heights as Patek.P and the other top brands: Your opinion will not change this fact. One uses the largest watch industry budget in advertising, the other is very far from that kind of politic. Patek.P is not specially the king of complicated movements and I never meant that. But if you put Rolex in the same ranks as Patek.P just because both are reaching high prices in auctions: You don't understand this discussion. This is what brings buks at a Patek auction http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:96HGHZ8-zjgJ:http://www.forbes.com/sites/anthonydemarco/2013/06/11/patek-philippe-grand-complication-fetches-2-25-million-at-christies/+&cd=11&hl=no&ct=clnk&client=safari Any Rolex to compare there in this kind of auction? Those are 2 different worlds. Period. I don't despise Rolex: I'm just untouched by the so called social achievement status it procure to most of it's clients. A status of success who's mostly built up by the golden-boys and a gigantic advertising budget who surpasses any brand by far. This brand only has 108 years of existence and you present it like they wrote most of watch-making history. Rolex is not interested about challenging any brand like L.Sohne or others in the high end and will never be there. They will never be in the high complications's world and you know that: Explain it as you want. I have like many my personal thoughts on that and they are apparently different from yours. This debate is turning ridiculous and apparently this 60% is just a f@cking joke to you: Well, that's your opinion. You are not a member of the Swiss politic, neither any from the watch-industry who been fighting for it: They had them reasons, respect that at list. Since it seems like I just defend bullsh*t here, I guess it's time to take holidays. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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your passion is wonderful Will,but unfortunately the 60% is a joke to the entire Swiss watchmaking community and most likely will change nothing...I have been talking to several Swiss watchmakers who tell me this first hand,not google.When have you ever heard of a watch company busted for breaking the 51% rule?...bottom line is that the Swiss Made campaign was more about weakening Swiss rivalries than keeping the Asians out...the higher the percentage the more likely the Swatch group would have strengthened as they hold a 70% market share...it was about keeping the playing field level and was politics my friend! Rolex and Patek as well as any proven(not start up) large company spends around 7-10% of their annual budget on advertising...why does one company spend more than others?...because they earn more,thus making the percentage appear to be higher. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Here is the full detail in pdf file of the Swissness legislative amendment: This will clear out the questions anyone could have about what it concerns, why and who benefits it. This is a full amendment and only a part of it speaks about the industrial products/goods who passed from 50 to 60%. https://www.ige.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/Juristische_Infos/e/Swissness_Legislative_Amendment-Content.pdf |
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