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| Fake "vintage" Aquadive watches | Rating: 
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2013 03:24 pm |
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1st Post |
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timesofplenty 3T WIS 
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I've had a few complete 709 and 709-1 watches, some others that were incomplete, a couple dozen cases, and lots of parts. The bulk of the cases and parts came from a service center that repaired Doxa, Aquadive, Aquastar and other dive watches for professional divers in the 1970s-1980s. They sat for 20+ years until I found them. Last week a friend gave me a black dialed watch to look at that needed help. When the watch was rec'd it had glue inside holding it together. He had the mvt serviced and the watchmaker couldn't put the watch back together for various reasons. I started digging and with the help of some friends we've found 3 watches with the same serial # of 7093375. The watches are nearly identical to each other and to similar watches that have had the serial #'s obliterated. However, they are different than all of the originals I've handled. There are many differences between the counterfeit and original, and features that are unique to the counterfeits. These watches are currently being advertised for sale as originals. Last edited on Fri Jan 25th, 2013 04:20 pm by timesofplenty |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2013 05:29 pm |
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2nd Post |
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timesofplenty 3T WIS
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Here's a couple of pics of one of the fakes: 
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2013 07:39 pm |
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3rd Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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Do you mean that those fakes are new Asian copies? 
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2013 07:49 pm |
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4th Post |
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timesofplenty 3T WIS
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Hammerfjord wrote:Do you mean that those fakes are new Asian copies? I can't say for certain but I would bet $1 that they're of Asian origin. These watches are being offered on sales forums and ebay. Here's most of what I noted when I had one of these black-dialed watches in my hand and was able to compare it to 14 original cases: The crystal was broken and appears to be normal glass, not tempered mineral glass as original. The lockring is 2 pieces pressed together and different from any of the 20+ that I've had. The machining is very rough, and the gasket groove larger than the originals. A press-fit lockring would not be a functional piece with regards to the working assembly of the watch as it could (and did) come apart with action or removal of bezel. These pictures show the counterfeit lockring and an original:     The casedoes not have the correct profile and is machined improperly between ~2 & ~7 where the outer gasket sits. The mating surface is not flat, and the gasket channel is too deep, so the lockring will not sit properly on the gasket. I didn't pressure test it, but I doubt it would be good. Counterfeit:  Genuine:  The lug area on originals show no machining marks, but rather show evidence of the original method manufacture. From the Philip Watch pdf book, page 31: "First of all, the block of metal was passed through the press, then machined internally only from above..." http://www.philipwatch.net/files/Philip_Watch/Book.pdf Original case on left:  Spring bar holes are seen to be different, too. All of the original watches I inspected showed deeper spring bar holes which did not appear to be drilled as the shallow holes on the counterfeit appear to be. The case measurements were inconsistent with the 14 cases and watches I personally measured: The outer diameter was just over 48mm, genuine are 50mm or a tiny bit under. The lug spacing on the originals is consistently very close to 21.80mm. The counterfeit is over 22mm. I tried a new watchadoo bracelet on every case and it only fit the counterfeit. The Jenny logo on the back is crude in comparison to the originals:   This is more than a matter of the back being worn or refinished. The edges and relief is soft, and the background rough. Inconsistent with all the original watches I've seen. The case tube area shows over-cutting which is not present on any of the originals. The crown and case tube are different than original:   My complete watches were not taken apart at the time these pictures were taken. I can provide pictures of original crowns as needed. The mvt ring from the counterfeit did not fit any of the originals. Last edited on Fri Jan 25th, 2013 07:51 pm by timesofplenty |
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| Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2013 10:00 pm |
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5th Post |
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oagaspar Site Founder 
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very interesting Scott...nice catch,and report,TY! ...I couldn't open the Phillip watch pdf,but here is a pic of my Phillip/Jenny Caribbean...I'll get some comparison pics up asap...  Attachment: 24 philip carribean.jpg (Downloaded 63 times)
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2013 10:14 am |
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6th Post |
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timesofplenty 3T WIS
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oagaspar wrote:...here is a pic of my Phillip/Jenny Caribbean...I'll get some comparison pics up asap... Great watch Oscar! There are some really interesting Philip watches from the 70s. Great to see yours in such nice condition and with the original bracelet. I'm thinking the fake 709-1 cases are being sand-cast then laser engraved. They'll probably start changing the serial #'s now. BTW The 709-1 series appears to have started with the 7093XXX serial # series. All of the 709 examples I've seen and cases I have are 7092XXX. There are subtle differences between the 2 models. These watches are not often seen so it's easy to get taken. Here's a shot of my 2 original keepers: a 712 Discochron and 709-1 Discosub: 
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2013 10:56 am |
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7th Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Great report and very revealing informations! I am more disgusted than surprised by the way those low people stretch themself for the making of false vintage watches: There's no limit in those countries who will certainly, as soon as they can, try to make fake children to sell them for adoption... But after all, when you can sell lies everyday to your owns, it's not difficult to do it to others.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 26th, 2013 10:13 pm |
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8th Post |
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stew77 Admin 
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Thanks alot for the very informative post Scott! Quite amazing to see what these counterfeiters will tackle with these very rarely seen and great vintage models.
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| Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2013 04:55 pm |
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9th Post |
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Devin 3T WIS 
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Thanks Scott for the report! All I can say is Yikes! Very easy to be taken...
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2013 08:14 am |
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10th Post |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Devin wrote:Thanks Scott for the report! All I can say is Yikes! Very easy to be taken... You're right on that: One has to really know about the originals to find out... I guess many guys been swindled on that: Sadly.
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2013 10:20 am |
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11th Post |
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cmoy 3T WIS 
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So far all of the fakes we could find are black dial Aquadive 709-1. Thanks for share Scott!
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2013 10:50 am |
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12th Post |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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cmoy wrote: So far all of the fakes we could find are black dial Aquadive 709-1. Thanks for share Scott!welcome aboard Chris,and TY for you input...what I have noticed with most vintage fakes from the 70's is that the casebacks are lazer engraved,something that did not exist in the 70's...this deep engraving on the caseback lettering should be your 1st tell.
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