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TimeTechTalk.com > 3T Official Brand Forums > Kazimon Zeitmessinstrumente > SPECIAL ORDERS/BRONZE CASE 1500 |
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TimeTechTalk.com > 3T Official Brand Forums > Kazimon Zeitmessinstrumente > SPECIAL ORDERS/BRONZE CASE 1500 |
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Kazimon 3T WIS 
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WELL I WAS ASKED SOMETIMES TO DO SPECIAL ITEMS. I DID SOME AND HOPEFULLY SOME WILL POST. ONE CUSTOMER WANTED A OMEGA MOVEMENT BUILD IN THE KAZIMON 1500. WHICH I HAVE MANAGED TO DO WITH A LOOKTHROUGH GLAS CASEBACK. NOW I AM DOING A KAZIMON 1500 MADE OUT OF BRONZE. VERY THOUGH MATERIAL AND A LOT WORK. BUT I THINK VERY UNIQUE ALSO. WILL BRONZE NOT CHANGE DUE TO TIME? YES, THAT GIVE THE WATCH A VERY UNIQUE SURFACE AFTER A WHILE. I OFFER THIS SERVICE FOR 3T MEMBERS. BUT PLEASE ITS NOT A SERVICE WHICH IS LOW PRICED. SOLD OUT |
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StefB 3T WIS
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Wow! Now that is totally interesting. I've been back and forth about the very cool 1500. But an omega movement in a bronze case is intriguing... |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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@StefB no the omega one is in stainless steel case. its was the movement from the customer. the bronze will get a 2824 movement. |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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ok some pics in early stage...        |
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oagaspar Site Founder 
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Cool!...this bronze cased 1500 will be awesome imo and one that will be added to my growing Kazimon collection for sure!  |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS 
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Kaz, the idea for such a watch in that material is really great. Would the watch be all bronze...i.e. caseback, crown, buckle etc? This would be on leather strap or skeleton bracelet? I'm sure we WIS all appreciate updates as you move along on this. Just wondering, ballpark.....where would the price point hover at for a 2824 and the usual exquisite Kazimon dial on strap or skeleton?  Last edited on Fri May 7th, 2010 03:32 am by bigrustypig |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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well this project has started with the inquire of Dan B., who asked me if i could do a bronze version of the Kazimon 1500. i said i will try and had a lot problems in the beginning as i never worked on this material. to get this done is expensive as it was planned only to do one watch. now maybe i get out 3-4 pieces, as due trying to work on the material some will get lost. i will not make money out of this but i also dont want to loose money. i can not tell any price point at this stage, just an estimate is around 1500-1600us$. as usual includes express shipping. its just an estimate. people in US are lucky as the Euro gets weak these days. crown and helium ventil will be stainless steel, to keep the watch usuable. caseback depends on customers request. i like to try and do new projects and hope so we can all together realize new ideas. i have 1000 ideas in my mind but not the money to realize them. so maybe one day somebody will offer me a job or take over my company.... Last edited on Fri May 7th, 2010 03:48 am by Kazimon |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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And you Sir are an absolute star!!! Last edited on Fri May 7th, 2010 08:00 am by putnam dan |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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Thanks, Kaz. I am hearing you very loud and very clear on this. Updates appreciated, of course |
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travis 3T WIS
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very cool stuff. thank you. |
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Willieboy 3T WIS 
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I have a brass porthole dog that came into my possession while diving on a wreck in Lake Superior. The ship was called the Emperor. Wouldn't it be great to have it melted down and have a case formed from it? I could call the resulting watch "The Emperor." |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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project is moving on.... |
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Nabco 3T WIS 
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This is going to be cool to watch develop  |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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Agree with Nic. If the crown and HEV are in brushed or polished steel, the watch would take on a 2 tone look. Perfect....if also complemented by a bronze preV or sparta buckle. I'm suspecting this is south of 42mm? Praying it's 44mm and I'm in for sure. Way to go Kaz |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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its the 1500 in bronze..... helium and crown will be steel. also its limited to 4-5 pieces at this time. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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the bronze 1500 will be awesome imo owning the SS version and knowing how nice it is only makes me drool a little more over the bronzy!  |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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Kazimon wrote: its the 1500 in bronze..... helium and crown will be steel. This is on ETA 2824, right, Kazim? Could you supply us details on dimensions (diameter, height, lug-to-lug, lug width) Will you supply the bronze buckle? Or it comes on bronze skeleton? Thanks. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator 
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bigrustypig wrote:Kazimon wrote:its the 1500 in bronze..... helium and crown will be steel. Jeff, honnestly the 1500 like many other watches don't suffer of a "undersize syndrome". I'm sure that you would feel it as a 44mm on the wrist... |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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It is worth noting that bronze weighs more than stainless, so like my Ennebi wears smaller because it's Ti, this will likely wear larger. I'm so happy to see this request moving down the path to fruition and thankful to Kazim for listening to a customer and doing this for me. It's good to see such interest also from other WIS that makes me hope he does this again sometime. Do I get number 1 of the bronze case :) |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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Hammerfjord wrote: bigrustypig wrote: Oh, ok, William. You may be right. If Putnam Dan says bronze is heavier than stainless, this baby might be worth a try. Thanks! |
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stew77 Admin 
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bigrustypig wrote: Hammerfjord wrote:bigrustypig wrote: Hey Jeff...also remember that Kazim has stated that the overall thickness of the 1500 is on the order of 16-17mm including glass...which I think will really add to the overall heft and wrist presence of this piece as well !! Maybe some of you 1500 owners can confirm the overall thickness dimension? |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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A side benifit of bronze, is it's low metal on metal friction - as such the bezel should turn very smoothly |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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stew77 wrote: bigrustypig wrote:Hammerfjord wrote:bigrustypig wrote: Thanks, Chris. I didn't realize they're 16/17 tall. That puts the 1500 in the same group as the Aqua Luna and Enzo. Hmmmm...interesting. Putnam Dan, thanks for your inputs too. I wonder if Kazim would go the extra mile and create a skeleton bracelet like what he did for the Drei????fart.gif |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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any pics of the skeleton I've not seen it. You could always ask him, though remember bronze needs a certain thickness for strength. |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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You're right, Putnam Dan. Just not sure....would the bronze skeleton bracelet tarnish into green faster than the case because of skin contact? Wouldn't there be some "smell"? Hmmm. Maybe slapping on a tradtional leather strap would do it....but in a dark shade to pre-compensate for any tarnishing/staining??? of the bronze lug horns which has frequent contact with the lug roll side of the strap??? |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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i will not do a bronze strap at this time. to expensive to do that for small quantity. some question which was asked here: thickness is 17mm from caseback to the top of the glass. also, some asked me about the bronze. i am not using the UNI5275 which is used by Anomino. its known in italy. the bronze i use is German RG7 based on DIN EN 1982. its used for high stressed machines. so its not soft, but bronze is never strong as steel. but the most important point why i use this bronze is, it is seawater resistant. so please dont get fooled always by big brand marketing. Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 09:36 am by Kazimon |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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Kazimon wrote: i will not do a bronze strap at this time. to expensive to do that for small quantity. I appreciate your clarifications, Kazim  |
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lukaslikes 3T WIS
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Kazimon wrote:
Hey Kenzo, From my rudimentary research the alloy you are using, RG7 DIN EN 1982, is know by C93200 or SAE 660 in North America. It is a standard bearing bronze, and contains nominally 7% Tin, 6-7% Lead, and 3-4% Zinc, remainder Copper. From http://www.concast.nl/elcas/index.php?page=brons/brons&lg=eng: "[RG7 is the] Most common used bronze alloy, also called bearing bronze. Suitable for bearings with middle duty load, good sliding and dry running properties and good machinability. Main purposes: bearings, slide strips and valves. RG7 has a very good lubricant structure." From http://www.anchorbronze.com/c93200.htm: Mechanical Properties M07 - As Continuous Cast Hardness* Brinell Hardness (500 kg load) 65 Tensile Strength** KSI 35 min Yield Strength ** KSI (0.5% Ext. under load) 20 min Elongation** % in 2 inch 10 min **Test values are nominal approximations and depend on specimen size and orientation. Whereas the UNI5275 is known as C95500 or C95520 (heat treated version, TH04) in North America and contains no lead, being an Aluminum Nickel Bronze. From http://www.nbmmetals.com/downloads/NBM_C95520.pdf: Room Temp Tensile & Hardness Data TENSILE STRENGTH (KSI) MIN 125 YIELD STRENGTH (KSI) MIN 95 ELONGATION IN HD MIN 2% BRINELL (3000 KG) 262 That is heat treated. Not sure if the bronze can be in this condition prior to machining. I think it can be, but set-up would differ accordingly. The non-heat treated, as cast version, C95500, has these properties. From http://www.anchorbronze.com/c95500.htm: Mechanical Properties (as cast) M07 - As Continuous Cast Hardness* Brinell Hardness (3000 kg load) 190 Tensile Strength** KSI 95 min Yield Strength ** KSI (0.5% Ext. under load) 42 min Elongation** % in 2 inch 10 **Test values are nominal approximations and depend on specimen size and orientation. The composition of C95500, C95520 is nominally 11% Aluminum, 4-5% Iron, 5% Nickel, Max 3.5% Manganese, remainder Copper (with some additional minor constituents). Also from the pdf linked to above: Typical Uses Oil & Gas Rock Bit Bearings, Bushings, & Washers, BOP Parts, Wellhead Components Aerospace Landing Gear Bushings and Bearings Automotive Bearings, Off-Highway Truck Bushings, Forming Roll Bearings Marine Pump Parts, Bushings Industrial Cams, Shafting, Hydraulic Bushings for Earth Moving Equipment, Valve Balls, Cryogenics, Drill Guide Bushings Military Tank Track Bearings, Bushings, Aircraft Components" And from http://www.anchorbronze.com/c95500.htm: Applications Valve guides and seats in aircraft engines, corrosion resistant parts, bearings, bushings, gears, worm gears, pickling hooks and baskets, agitators. That website also lists the machinability of C93200 (=70) and C95500 (=50) compared to free cutting brass (=100), so the C93200 is easier to machine. You can draw your own conclusions about which alloy provides which benefits for this application. Not saying there is a wrong or right alloy here, or one is better than another, just showing the different compositions and properties. With the C95500 and C95520 you can see a big difference in mechanical properties between the as cast and heat treated versions of this alloy. What I haven't found is a good comparison of these two alloys in terms of salt water corrosion, but they both are listed as corrosion resistant alloys. Lukas |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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So what this really says is that Anonimo bronze is lighter and harder than Kazimon bronze which is in turn heavier and softer (soft being a relative term here). Kazimon bronze will bend whereas Anonomo would fracture under extream abuse. Anonimo has Aluminium in the mix and kazimon lead and more copper (don't worry these are only toxic if you eat them). Both are used in salt water pump assemblies so both should be considered sea water friendly. Perfect, this means in real terms that dents and surface scratches are more likely on the 1500 and wabi sabi will over time be more evident, it also means the material is more 'lubricant' an advantage in the bezel. The case itself will cushion major impacts to the mechanism (all be it very slightly) and more likely show scars as a result. Whereas the Anonimo will look pristine longer. Excellent, softer with more copper will develop more of a patina faster and it's this patina that is one of my desired characteristics in a bronze watch, the case is of sufficient size and thickness for any surface scars to only add to the appeal. Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 03:41 pm by putnam dan |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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well i dont know which RG7 is in the USA and where some get the info from. the data you using are maybe for the USA but not in germany. UNI5275 contains also lead. you should do your resaerch and easly can find the result in italy  here is the link, maybe you can use google translate to find out the data for RG7 from the german company. http://www.bronze.ch/deutsch/prod/halb/looser_bronze_50.htm as i said none of the bronze are strong as steel, that was also not our goal for the case. also i am realy getting tired discussing why i use what or why i dont. i do it my way and not the way maybe other companys does or dont. |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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..don't worry these are only toxic if you eat them.. Putnam, you don't need to ingest materials for them to have a toxic effect on the organism. The skin and it's pores are an open door on external components if you are in tight and repetitive contact with them. The pores absorb toxines when beeing in long contact with toxic materials. That's how people got skin rashes from components like nickel or chrome placed on cheap jewelry or bracelets... As an extreme exemple... That's also how we had people on oil platforms dying of leukemia and other cancers after having them skin repetedly in contact with hydrolic and turbine synthetic oils... The oil leaked in the gloves, clothes and contaminated them. To finish with that: In the old time, we was using lead pipes for drinking water and even lead for the first tinned foods, resulting after long time of exposure, to contaminations or poisoning called "Saturnism"... Offcourse this is not the case with this bronze containing maximum 7% of lead and who is not ingested: My exemple is just an extreme one to show how simple repetitive contact with some special elements can be dangerous. Consider also the fact that it's brass, not bronze, who is commonly used on plumbing valves, and should contain under 4% of lead when in contact with drinking water, from what I've been reading. Exemple: The state of California took it down this year to maximum 0.25% of lead for the brass parts in plumbing for drinking water, based on security reasons. From what I understood, the only purpose of the lead presence in the bronze or brass, is to make it more easy to be machined as it get tender and don't rip or crack so easily under the cuting, machining... Again,as I said, ingestion makes you much more exposed than simple long skin contact: No doubt there. However, my question is: Is there any special reason related to any health normes for that the most used bronze alloy in watch manufacture, is the one who don't contain lead? Or is that only based on the fact that this alloy is harder and more resistant to sratches,dings...? |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Kazimon wrote:well i dont know which RG7 is in the USA and where some get the info from. LB50 described on this German site contains min. 5% , max.8% of lead. The UNI5275 contains 0.1%. The RG7 contain 6 to 7% Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 05:35 pm by Hammerfjord |
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lukaslikes 3T WIS
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Kenzo, I never meant to question your material choice, I merely wanted to show the differences, and that it is not always just a question of marketing. Dan spoke to the potential differences between the alloys in actual use, and they both have their benefits and potential drawbacks. It is interesting to see all the different types of materials possible to be used for watches and what the difference are. For example, Rolex fans can go on and on about the benefits of the particular stainless steel, 904L, Rolex uses for their cases versus the typical 316L most others use. Yup, to be clear, what the manufacturers and suppliers call lead free (I called it 'no lead' in my post above) does not mean 99.999% Lead free. Lead is considered a contaminant for the most part in alloys with less than 1% Lead, and due to the raw materials, including scrap copper alloys, used to make the alloys, it can be much more expensive to achieve lower lead levels. Also, the benefits of Lead, easier machining, improved fluidity during casting, corrosion resistance, need to be rejigged with a new alloy system that does not contain a significant quantity of Lead. Copper.org has this to say regarding Lead in copper alloys for potable water sources: "The 1986 Safe Drinking Water Act (SDWA) amendments included Section 1417. This section addressed concerns for lead contamination in drinking water systems. As of June 19, 1986, all pipes, solders, pipe fittings or plumbing fixtures used in the installation or repair of any public water system or any plumbing in a residential or nonresidential facility which provided water for human consumption had to be "lead-free." The term "lead-free" was defined to mean that solder and flux could not contain more than 0.2 percent lead; pipes and fittings not more than 8.0 percent; and plumbing fittings and fixtures must comply with voluntary standards required under the SDWA." RG7, C93600, is consider a low lead alloy and would meet the above requirement if it were used in potable water systems. B-Metal, Red Brass, C836, is often used for water works castings (around 4 to 6% Lead). Recently California changed their rules about Lead in potable water systems: "What are the maximum allowable lead limits in plumbing products? Before January 1, 2010, the maximum allowable lead content in “lead free” pipes, pipe or plumbing fittings, fixtures, solder, or flux is as follows: 0.2 percent lead in solder and flux; 8 percent lead in pipes and pipe fittings; 4 percent lead by dry weight in plumbing fittings and fixtures. After January 1, 2010, the maximum allowable lead content in “lead-free” pipes, pipe or plumbing fittings, fixtures, solder, or flux intended to convey or dispense water for human consumption through drinking or cooking is as follows: 0.2 percent lead in solder and flux; 0.25 percent lead in wetted surfaces of pipes, pipe fittings, plumbing fittings and fixtures, as determined by a weighted average." Given that the Bronze cases will hardly be in contact with the skin (as the case back and buckle will be in stainless steel) the actual amount of Lead in the Bronze case is of little concern to the end consumer, unless someone decides to eat it. Keep on with the Bronze watches, they are looking great so far! Lukas |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I totally agree with you Lukaslike. Good corroboration of what I was speaking about |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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It's only tetraethyl lead that is absorbed through the skin aka in gasoline, and unless you plan to literally ingest your watch you'll be fine. Regarding lead in drinking water, again you have to drink it! Lead poisoning is not found through skin contact unless in solution (which doesn't include a watchcase in contact with skin) Kazim, you carry on, some of us agree your right. I still think your a visionary :) Last edited on Thu May 27th, 2010 09:07 pm by putnam dan |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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well so UNI5275 contains Aluminium, right? 11%, right? RG7 has none to max 0.01 than maybe we should be aware of this which is commonly known, check the internet: The uptake of aluminum can take place through food, through breathing and by skin contact. Long lasting uptakes of significant concentrations of aluminum can lead to serious health effects, such as: - Damage to the central nervous system - Dementia - Loss of memory - Listlessness - Severe trembling so we can discuss this up to the end of the world and maybe also start a medical study.... or we just work to finish the watch. Last edited on Fri May 28th, 2010 05:09 am by Kazimon |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I see this little discution as very positive: Many was wondering about those matters. Bringing some serious facts been helping them and us to understand. People are allways a bit negatives about new things coming in an "established" process: It's a usual human reaction... Now that everything is cleared, Kazim will have less questions and less skeptisism toward this alloy.  |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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HUGS all around |
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Gunscrossed 3T WIS
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Any news on this one? |
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bigrustypig 3T WIS
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I think this watch case will go great on black bund strap adding some more heft and height to it plus giving it some more profile. Also, for me who works in humid Asia, that pad under the case will be of great help. I can't wait to see the final version  |
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Watchthis 3T WIS
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Any more developments on this great looking bronze case? |
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UTTrading 3T WIS 
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What a great read. I am a machinist and a big fan of anything machined from a big piece of metal. All the best Ted Su(TW) |
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Gunscrossed 3T WIS
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Kazimon wrote: project is moving on.... Looking at these pics case production is nearly finished? |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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uptodate pics |
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Gunscrossed 3T WIS
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Seriously cool, thanks for the update! |
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Gunscrossed 3T WIS
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Bezel reminds me of a porthole, |
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arlee 3T WIS
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case is looking spectacular, any word on what the hands and dial are going to be like? ie: bronze skeletonized hands maybe to match the case? or a dial with lettering thats not red but bronze color? |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Those cases look great |
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putnam dan 3T WIS
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I really like the idea of this on a bund, will certainly have to try. |
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Jayo 3T WIS
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this looks great! I'm not yet sure if I want one, but do you have a reservation list or will you open reservation when the watch is ready to ship? |
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Watchthis 3T WIS
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Kazimon wrote:uptodate pics Hey there---any updates regarding this great looking case? |
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Devin 3T WIS 
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I too was looking for an update |
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Kazimon 3T WIS
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well, this week assambling is finished. so i will ship out next week. |
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Watchthis 3T WIS
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Do you have any photos of the finished bronze watches? |
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kestrel131 3T WIS
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Any update or pics of this watch? |
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leeye 3T WIS
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I would like to share with everyone. Kazim sent me latest pics of the Kazimon 1500 bronze watch 26.gif Merry Christmas to everyone!   Last edited on Thu Dec 23rd, 2010 02:57 am by leeye |
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Bonekrusher 3T WIS 
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Is this bronze edition reserved or all sold out already? |
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Scart 3T WIS 
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very nice |
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leeye 3T WIS
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i think the very limited watches produced are all spoken for. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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it looks absolutely awesome!...can't wait to see it on the wrist!...Congrats Kenzo! |
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stew77 Admin
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leeye wrote: I would like to share with everyone. Kazim sent me latest pics of the Kazimon 1500 bronze watch 26.gif Oh...that looks HOT!!!26.gif Very nicely done Kazim!!! Thanks for posting these pics leeye!!!! |
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StefB 3T WIS
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Wow - really nice job! So can we still order one or is that it?  |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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StefB wrote: Wow - really nice job! So can we still order one or is that it?read the entire thread for your answer... |
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leeye 3T WIS
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Just received my Kazimon bronze LE watch. What a beauty it is!   |
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leeye 3T WIS
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Original pics from Kazimon.  |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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Superbe Leeye! Can't wait to see some wrist shots on the daily wrist-show! The 1500 is an amazing watch |
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leeye 3T WIS
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more pics of the Kazimon 1500. no wrist time at this moment, waiting for a custom vintage strap to match the watch.   |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Congrats Leeye...the bronze 1500 looks awesome! |
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leeye 3T WIS
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latest pics of my Kazimon 1500 Bronze on a brown leather strap and solid bronze buckle.    |
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Hammerfjord Moderator
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I love it! Superbe... |
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StrapR 3T WIS
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Awesome! Who made the strap? |
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leeye 3T WIS
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StrapR wrote: Awesome! Who made the strap? It's actually a strap from Kobold. You can see the Kobold logo on the underside which is very similar to the Kazimon logo. This particular strap is very soft and excellent on the wrist. The bronze buckle is from Simona. |
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StrapR 3T WIS
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Hey! Your in Singapore??? Ne Too!!! We need to get together and compare watches!!!!!  |
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leeye 3T WIS
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your location states Baltimore, USA? i'm now in shanghai, will only be back next weekend. will you still be around? |
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sapcmc 3T WIS
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Awesome looking piece made by Kazim Has the watch case started gaining patina? |
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leeye 3T WIS
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No, niether my Kazimon or Helson have gain any patina. Could be because of the dry and cold weather here in Shanghai. |
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StrapR 3T WIS
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Yes, I am still in Singapore!!! |
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FuzzyB 3T WIS
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What was the total number of production for the bronze 1500? I believe Kenzo originally said 4-5, but I was curious to know how many were actually produced. The polished and brushed portions really make this bronze piece exceptionally beautiful. |
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leeye 3T WIS
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FuzzyB, I believe it is 5 pieces made by Kenzo. StrapR, well I shuttle between Shanghai and Singapore. |
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FuzzyB 3T WIS
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Thanks for the response. I was able to pick up one on the sales forums recently and was curious how limited the actually production turned out. The watch is amazing! |
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