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oagaspar Site Founder 
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For the past year many new upstart companies have entered the world of watchmaking that rely on forums and TV shopping show to sell their wares.As this growing trend continues a WIS must ask "where are all the eta's coming from" especially since the production of these very sought after movements are booked until 2010 as reported by ETA/Swatch Group? Below are some answers that have come to me from reliable sources over the past year and through research into this growing problem ETA/Swatch Group has been aware of their ebauches ie:an incomplete watch movement consisting of the plates,bridges and wheel train minus the mainspring,balance and escapement or also known as a movement blanks being purchased by watch companies in order to calibrate their own movements and many of these companies are well known and much above board.There were also those who bought them and finished these blanks with Asian parts thus appearing the Asian ETA!....these were sub-standard movements compared to a genuine eta and Swatch Group wanted this stopped so we have the current situation as Swatch Group like any other reputable company did not want their product line polluted by these sub-standard movements giving them a bad name.These movements are not to be mistaken for those made in the once ETA factory in China which has since been closed and it is rumored this factory only assembled their much lower line of G-10's and the like and not their more popular automatic movements.The so called Asian eta came about by these individuals who saw a way to profit off of a good name by completeing the movements with cheaper parts and labor,mind you they looked genuine as the ebauches had all the genuine eta markings from the factory. So today the problem has reached an all time low as the eta market has now been flooded with replica eta movements that have been used in the replica watch industry for years and for the most part all 100% Asian and are likely to be the Hangzhou 6300 which is a clone of the eta 2824 and very hard to distinguish the differnce once they are stamped with the eta markings.These so called eta's are then sold to unsuspecting watch manufacturers as being genuine and then passed on to WIS! They do not come from ETA but from secondary and third sources and in most cases sold directly to the person/company interested in producing a watch.Most of these individuals have entered the watchmaking business with no watch knowledge and truly believe they have found the impossible but there are those who know very well that they have bought either a replica or a non 100% eta due to the price of these movements and knowledge that the marketet has dried up to all but the very large and well known watch manufaturers and Swiss contractors. Below is a post from TZ a year ago and now resurfacing on the forums.It shows a good way to tell a fake or non original eta from the genuine article and should be bookmarked by all WIS as this trend has increased.The talk of the Asian eta 1st surfaced about 5-6 years ago and today it is an epidemic we must all be aware of as many of the new upstart companies are using these 100% Asian replicas or non-100% assembled etas either knowingly or just blinded by shear lack of knowledge and belief they have found the golden egg.Choose your Swiss Made and Swiss movement watches carefully and ask questions before buying as these companies rely on the forums for sales.A safe bet is buying from a company that is reputable and has built strong alliances with their respected manufacturers for example companies building watches through Fricker Co. in Germany or one of the larger Swiss houses who are on the direct ETA list and rely on well known brand names who have been around for years to centuries.Don't be fooled ...know what movement is in your watch and ask these new companies where they are getting their movements from...be an eduacated WIS as watchmaking has reached a new day and we must be prepared.  One of the problems was caused by an incorrect length screw protruding through the mainplate and interfering with the balance wheel assembly causing excessive end shake and problems in the keyless works. As the movement had been purchased as 'brand new' it either had come from the factory like it or been worked on previously. However, it turned out that what I had in front of me was a cloned ETA movement or maybe one that had been worked at some stage to become an ETA movement with a blank ébauche and cloned parts… Either way its almost 99% certain this movement did not come from ETA. I’d read about these movement on other forums but had never seen one before, so a little digging about confirmed what I had and that there seems to be more and more of these appearing…they are also not limited to the gilt one shown here but the nickel plated ones are also now appearing. So how do you spot one? What follows is not definative but does tally with the information I've dug up about these movements. From my investigations and from comparing this one to the many ETA 28xx housed watches I have these are some of the points you can use to identify them:  1) Check the ETA logo, the clone is poorly shaped, where the gen is more shaped and clear. 2) Check the Novdiac shock housing, the gen has three cutouts the clone just one. 3) The gen has 25 Jewels engraved on the rotor, the clone either has a sticker or nothing 4) The Barrel is polished on the clone, brushed on the gen. 5) The regulator markings are shallow on the clone with the + hanging on to the edge, on the gen they are deeper and clearly etched. In more detail on three of the above: Clone logo:  Gen logo:  Clone shock housing:  Gen shock housing:  Clone regulator markings:  Gen regulator markings:  |
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slinky469 3T WIS 
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Great info Oscar, Thanks.  |
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Tony Duronio 3T WIS 
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Excellent info..................unfortunately many of these upstarts know most people will not pop off the back of...lets say a 300m diver to do any investigative work.....that is why I respect Bill Yao and Eddie Platt so much...when they make a watch they're not afraid to show you what's going in it...unlike many:? I'll have to find a recent post where some upstart was showing a cache of 100 ETA movements they just got for there watches:? |
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teddyhanna Guest
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Oscar great info,.....yourock.gif |
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Tony Duronio 3T WIS
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Yup Teddy, that's the one...from the pics to me anyway hard to see the fine points mentioned thought the rotors look like OEM and look genuine |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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agreed Tony.. both Yao and Eddie are super reputable and I would add Kenzo,Korsbek and Anders as well to the list of WIS we have known for many years and recently who have much knowledge and contacts in the watch industry...plus I have had the backs off most all their watches and have grown to not only trust them but rely on themhand6.gif Tim was telling me while in Basel this year he saw a big commotion and went to see what it was about?...well it turned out that someone had genuine eta's FS and it was mayhem as some very well known watchmakers got into a bidding war over these few hundred and they sold for 4 times the value at the time!....this is what peaked my curiosity as to how so many small companies are suddenly getting their hands on eta's? face4.gif |
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Darkman 3T WIS 
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Great info, Oscar - thanks! |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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TY Chris but the comparison was done beforehand by someone else who really needs the credit as far a great pictorial...his name I have since forgotten but maybe he will step forward and I would like to thank himhand6.gif ...this should serve both the WIS and the WIS turned manufacturer as this sad testament affects both and hopefully it will be cracked down on by passing the word from forum to forum yourock.gif |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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below is a link to another excellent pictorial done by a well respected WIS over at TZ-UK who actually took the time to disassemble a mainstream Seagull clone in it's original state and a genuine eta 2824 step by step in a comparison review...very well worth the time to read and view and may be the most comprehensive and educational review I have ever seenhand6.gif http://www.tz-uk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=43661&st=0&sk=t&sd=a |
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KenC Admin 
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oagaspar wrote: below is a link to another excellent pictorial done by a well respected WIS over at TZ-UK who actually took the time to disassemble a a mainstream Seagull clone in it's original state and a genuine eta 2824 step by step in a comparison review...very well worth the time to read and view and may be the most comprehensive and educational review I have ever seenhand6.gif I have read that article, some time back, and while the ETA certainly has a more refined finish, the Seagull movement does seem to be very good, and to my knowledge, they do not claim to be ETA' s as other's do! Didn't Eddie use one in his latest Precista? At any rate...all great info Oscar! |
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murphy j 3T WIS 
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I'm with Ken. I came across that article somewhere a while back and found it pretty informative and interesting. |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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never said the Seagull was one of these replica movements nor a bad one ,just wanted to share the thread for educational purposes as recognition of another eta clone that has been on the market for many years.... this one used in that TZ-UK thread is a eta 2824 clone and another example of a movement that is rumored as being restamped as an eta along with about 3 other Asian movements by unknown parties I have been made aware of ;) ...Eddie used the ST19 and made everyone aware of it and charged accordingly and that is why he is so trusted and well respected as Tony mentioned above The ST19 is a widely used column wheel chrono and pretty reliable....I own a few but each manufacturer seems to have a name of their own for them although they all originate from the same place...Seagull/Japan and a step up from these Chinese clones ... their is a excellent review of the ST19 in the reviews section here on 3T...recently Reidenschild started using it and call it a Gematic # ...in my Ingersoll it is called a Caliber 404 all just other examples of deception imo hand6.gif |
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cfoster 3T WIS
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For many years ETA has sold movement parts and is a major player in the industry world wide, partially for that reason. I wonder how much of these clone movements are genuine ETA and how much is not. That would be interesting. |
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romano 3T WIS 
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Excellent info and sad to say not surprising. This problem is far more widespread than watches. In a wrist watch you just get ripped off and buy a watch that doesn't work as it should, not a critical failure. This happens in everything from simple industrial and consumer machines to jet engines. It starts when the originator company in order to maximize profit and reduce costs either opens a factory or contracts for equipment at factories in countries with poor IP protection. within a couple of years counterfeit parts float around the world markets and other companies see these as an opportunity to reduce costs. These folks are not stupid and they must know that when the rest of the world is paying $75.00 for a part and they get offers to sell for $35.00 that something is up. they just look the other way. Its why we have melamine in pet food and baby formula. Greedy unethical business people. I don't blame the Chinese necessesarily. Yes their business practices leave something to be desired but the western companies that buy and contract there have an obligation to establish proper and detailed specs that should catch counterfeiting among other things. The lack of proper oversight is just another way to maximize profits because the risk of being caught and a problem turning up has been deemed acceptable vs cost of doing the right thing. Soap box packed away. |
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Paxman 3T WIS 
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Great info. Alarming to note some of these movements may already be circulating in cases throughout the WIS world. I'm not sure this is what ETA was after after modifying their distribution...:shock: |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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I have received some e-mails since posting this with more info and it seems eta is not the only one being replicated....makes sense that the Selitta SW200 is being replicated as well and even harder to distinguish from the real thing since it is a clone itself....just a sad tetament to what is happening to unsuspecting WIS  |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS 
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Yes very sad and as the clone artist get better at their trade it will become harder yet to tell the differnence. Looking at the pics I was amazed just how well done the clones are looking now. :shock: |
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Dookie 3T WIS
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THanks oscar for the effort. But seriously, there r so many clones/reps out there, even if cross examined one with all the info and paper, i wont be able to tell 100%. i think i will stick to the golden rule 'buy the seller not the watch. ' cool10.gifcool10.gif |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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It has come to my attention along with some threatening pm's from the owner of Prometheus Watch that 3T is being threatened with a lawsuit...a class action suit as a matter of fact? Neither 3T nor any member has accused nor insinuated Prometheus Watch of anything whatsoever as depicted in this thread that also appears on every major watch forum on the web!So someone please tell me what I am missing? :? 3T has always been a positive watch forum and has always promoted and allowed links to other forums and watch sites as long as they were approved by an admin...which is nearly everyone of them and in a positive light.It is very hurtful to be threatened by an unknown person and watch company for no reason and as I explained to Carlos owner of Prometheus watch that all he needed to do is politely ask that his forum link be removed,instead he threatens me and continues to do so? Carlos apparently knows me as he came to me months ago before joining WUS with a forum looking for space on 3T,so it is hard for me to understand why he would threaten 3T publicly on WUS and Ernie allow it along with links which we all know Ernie never allows links to 3T?...but it seems OK if they are negative in content filled with false accusations and inuendos? :( |
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Paxman 3T WIS
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Balderdash!!  No watch producer was mentioned. Does someone have a guilty conscience? Seems ridiculous! |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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well it didn't take long for all links and mention of 3T to be removed from the thread at WUS ...but I did copy the exact post with all mention and false accusations against 3T in place along with pics of the original post... |
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sapcmc 3T WIS
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Decision to delete links to this post was solely made by my decision and nobody else and I do not withdraw anything of what I said. There was innuendo on source of Prometheus movements and I clarified it. There is nothing to gain from both sides on escalating this issue. However I have to state I am the victim here and I am fully aware this post will get deleted. Last edited on Sun Dec 28th, 2008 06:52 pm by sapcmc |
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KenC Admin
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sapcmc wrote: Decision to delete links to this post was solely made by my decision and nobody else and I do not withdraw anything of what I said. There was innuendo on source of Prometheus movements and I clarified it. Why would anyone delete this post? You made some false assumptions and publicly blamed people before considering the consequences. Your decision to delete the links to the post was, perhaps, honorable, but your statement that you do not withdraw anything you said is not. The mere fact that you accused us of a falsehood is libelous...nobody named you. You are welcome to post here anytime, as long as you act like a gentleman! You, of course, are entitled to do anything you want...but please consider the consequences. This is one of the most respected watch forums in the market. We do not make accusations, and we do not have the usual "flames" so typical of other forums; we publish information. We happen to be a rather powerful influence in the industry, and do not take kindly to those who would unreasonably and deliberately tarnish that reputation. |
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KenC Admin
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It seems to me, he protests too much....hmmmmmmmmmm!? |
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Nabco 3T WIS 
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YIKES!!! Saw this thread yesterday and said to myself "self...this is great info, let's bookmark it". Log in tonight after driving back from NC and WOW what the hell happened!!! Made perfect sense what was originally posted by Oscar. I'm with Ken...why is this guy even bringing it up...all it did was bring attention to himself, and why make such a big deal of NOTHING.... I'm confused  |
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JDBuckwell 3T WIS 
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Nabco wrote:YIKES!!! Saw this thread yesterday and said to myself "self...this is great info, let's bookmark it". Trying to understand irrational behavior will simply give you a headache, and since I'm sure to have one come January 1st... I'll decline my normal inclination to attempt to figure-out what "Mr. Grumpy's" problem truly is. |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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OK OK let's stop now. Back On topic please. :) :cool: ;) |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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Only at the request of Ernie/WUS have I removed the links and posts in question as those who have been following this thread are aware of.I make no apologies for myself or on behalf of those attacked in this thread as they have done nothing wrong nor accusatory at or towards anyone or anybody and are very well respected WIS known for their kind demeanor and knowledge.:) ....3T and myself continue to be threatened both via pm and on open forum with a class action suit which apparently Carlos has no idea what that means?...and yet that seems to be OK as far as those involved with these false and liable accusations against members of this forum and 3T itself.Everything in that thread is false,even the assumptions some unknowing WIS claim.It is sad imho at best.:( ...Lawsuits are a 2 way street and if this manner of false accusation and directed liable is allowed and continues on another forum towards 3T which has now turned into a sensationalized attemp to gain empathy and posts to a otherwise unknown manufacturer than it will leave me no other avenue then to pursue this legally, to the full extent of the law including all persons,companies and forum either making or assuming these falsehoods.3T has a very firm legal disclaimer that all members agree to which alleve ownership and members from any legal obligations nor threat of suit.I am sorry that this has come to such a disheartening head over a simple yet very informative thread,which was going along flame free and genuinely positive by 3T's very well respected members.It took an outsider to turn it ugly and for this I apologize to the 3T body and hope this thread can now continue in the positive manner it was intended originally. |
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KenC Admin
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Fortunately, I had never heard about Prometheus*...so, out of curiosity, I went to their web site to find...lo and behold...an Asian copy of a Sinn Chronograph...but what the hell, let the hypocrites question 3T's integrity at will...we all know what the truth is! * I am editing this because some scumbag (who has been banned from soooo many forums) has accused me of lying about my statement...so instead of going up and changing my statement, I will note that if I ever did hear or comment about Prometheus in the past, it left such a minor impression on me that I have no recollection of it! |
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Nabco 3T WIS
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Hey Ken, I did the same thing, but I have to say you are absolutely wrong on the Sinn replica, in reality it is a Kobold Phantom replica....right down to the red hands....almost couldn't be more exact IMHO....go figure Attachment: Kobold Phantom Ti Chronograph 1.jpg (Downloaded 148 times) |
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KenC Admin
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Nabco wrote: Hey Ken, I did the same thing, but I have to say you are absolutely wrong on the Sinn replica, in reality it is a Kobold Phantom replica....right down to the red hands....almost couldn't be more exact IMHO....go figure You are right...but it is very SINN like also..below are a 256 and a 103.   |
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Paxman 3T WIS
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This is plain ridiculous. Nowhere did any 3T member insinuate this particular "manufacturer" was using clones. As Ken paraphrased the bard, "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."  And why? I looked over the dedicated forum at WUS and didn't see a model with Swiss movement.:shock: And as mentioned the chrono is so Kobold-like the forum contains an open letter of apology to the man himself.  This topic is most alarming when we consider all the small producers who may or may not have the means to acquire genuine movements. I would guess some may not even have the wherewithal to recognize a copied design before rushing into production. I think the cream will rise from the glut of small producers as time goes by... |
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Nabco 3T WIS
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Pax, you can't blame him on copying the Kobold, he said it was an "accident" so that makes it all good.....right!!! |
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Paxman 3T WIS
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Nabco wrote:
I hear ya'. At least check the design prior to production. |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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Paxman wrote: Nabco wrote: Yepper a little bit of home work and research goes a long way. ;) |
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KenC Admin
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Paxman wrote: Nabco wrote: Well...you know...it's not really his fault. He even hired a "freelancer to do designs of watch. At time I hired him I told him I wanted to have a watch chrono similar to the ones made by Sinn." So I guess it's the freelancer's fault for copying the Kobold.  Here's a guy that admits he hired a guy to design a watch that looks like a SINN...and the guy screws him by copying the Kobold design and handing it to him as an original!!! I can't even imagine how uneducated this guy must be as to the watch industry...which raises a question. He got duped on the design...how does he know he did not get duped on the ETA movements? I am almost embarrassed that Ernie would risk his reputation, and take the risk of slandering ours, without investigating this guy and his product for the sake of a few bucks in revenue! face4.gif WUS is much better than that! I mean no offense to Ernie, but this guy is a appears to be complete amateur...even compared to others just entering the business! Hmmmmmm....his Ocean Diver looks familiar, too! |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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OK just checked out the site. I can't say anything I may get in trouble with myself. :cool: :D ;) |
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Nabco 3T WIS
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Ken, I only have one thing to say to that "a big fat ditto" and LMFAO.....oh no that's two things....hope I don't get in trouble!!!! KenC wrote: Paxman wrote:Nabco wrote: Last edited on Mon Dec 29th, 2008 11:19 pm by Nabco |
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oagaspar Site Founder
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no different than any Asian homage with the exact same Asian 7750 that can be had for under $200. Chinese watches have a good following and I own more than a few myself . ....like this thread started out as saying replicas are hitting mainstream watchmaking ;) |
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Skipdawg 3T WIS
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And there is nothing wrong with getting or offering the Asian clone movements or homages. Just make sure you know what you are getting/paying for. Just like this Zinex Chrono with the 7750 clone in it. A fun watch and I have recieved allot of nice comments on it. But a Eta 7750 would be worth at least 10 times more if in a true swiss made watch. It just depends on what you want and what your budget is. ;) Attachment: zc004.jpg (Downloaded 207 times) |
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KenC Admin
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Sorry...guess I am being misunderstood here...there is nothing wrong with a well-made Asian watch. Many of the cases on my watches are Asian and they are as perfect as anything Swiss. My point was that it appears this is this guy's first encounter with Swiss ETA movement...if he is so easily duped on his "Original" design for his chronograph, then how is it not an easy transition to thinking the same may have happened on his purchase of high end Swiss Made movements. At any rate, he has shown himself to be a truly unknowledgeable entrant into the watch industry...buyer beware! |
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Nabco 3T WIS
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I'm right with you Tom.....nothing wrong with the Asian stuff, it's just crazy how someone is so out of touch |
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nsg1tausend 3T WIS
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Like the exprseeion I heard growing up" Geez Louise" not everything is copesetic! I read this and it leaves that uncomfortable feeling in your stomach. You have to be careful who you buy from, I trust the companies who we meet and know on our forum, and the higher brands, but from there................................? Great article Oscar Regards robt |
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