A Chino-Swiss company who makes watches for "mid and high-level range - Time Talk - Time Tech Talk - TimeTechTalk.com

TimeTechTalk.com > Time Tech Talk > Time Talk > A Chino-Swiss company who makes watches for "mid and high-level range

Welcome to 3T! Please take the time to register and join in on the friendly,knowledgeable watch talk.Please note that not all registrations will receive an immediate activation e-mail.Those who do not receive an immediate notification will be activated manually within 48hrs. by an admin. without an e-mail activation url sent to you,you may then sign in using your username and password,if you feel there is a problem please e-mail us at timetechtalk@hotmail.com and include your name and username and we activate your account.Thank You!

Moderated by: 3T

Page: 1 2 3 4 5

Printer Friendly

A Chino-Swiss company who makes watches for "mid and high-level range

Author	Post

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 11:25 am

Hammerfjord
Moderator

Joined:	Thu Apr 16th, 2009
Location:	Arctic, Norway
Posts:	5821
Status:	Offline

movas wrote:
Hello people of 3T,

It's funny that my first post is actually of someone else's brand, but I think this post is a good indication of how the world of watches works and would like to put forth my opinion on the matter. Being the voice of reason, I just want to say that there is always a method to the madness for certain actions of any brand. You have to ask yourselves, if brand A told you the truth about their manufacturing, would you pay the amount that they think their products are worth based on how much they value their own designs?

The fact of the matter is (and I hate to have to say this), is that branding/ marketing/ product placement is a consumer driven decision. If people did not place such a high importance on 'swiss made' watches, then brands will not purport this, even if it was not true. There is very little emphasis on originality and design as watches are becoming more of a commodity. It must have an ETA inside, it must be 316L stainless steel, it must have C3 superluminova, It must be at least 300m WR, AR coating, domed sapphire, etc etc etc.... the list goes on, and when it's stamped 'swiss made' then the price is ratcheted up another notch. I for one do not see what doxa did wrong because they didn't set the rules for 'swiss made' neither did they break those rules.

We need to start to question 'why' we buy our watches and what is really important to us as consumers and base our decisions on that. Ultimately the online community for watches is but a very very small percentage of the consumer market for watches as a whole.

BTW, Love this forum and hope to contribute where I can.

Movas, welcome at first!
I have to disagree on some things. People want "Swiss made" at first because it's a guarantee of quality standard.
With the different life standards over the world, the costs of productions are differents then the buyer expect to be passed-on those differences.
When your watch-cases are made in Hong-Kong, the cost is very reduced. If you justifie your high prices by saying that your cases are made in Switzerland or even inhouse at your own factory and in fact, you have them made at lower cost in China: You are just fooling your clients for making more money.
Helenarou don't fool anybody: They have it made in Hong-Kong, say it and pass-on the low prices.
Kazimon have it all made in Germany(inhouse for the 1500 case) and justify his higher cost with those facts: Real facts...Not lies: I own a custom 1500.
For some different reasons, such as quality standards(one of them can be patriotism), some clients want them watches made in a particular country.
If I want a watch 100% made in Norway, I will assume at once that it will cost me more than a watch made in Switzerland as we have higher life standards here, higher taxes on most of things ect...Yes: Everything is expensive in Norway.
At the end: We just want what we pay for: Nothing else.
We don't like to feel fooled by greedy fabricants: Whoever they can be.

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 11:47 am

Johnny P
Advisor

Joined:	Thu Nov 3rd, 2005
Location:	USA
Posts:	1783
Status:	Offline

Hammerfjord we must be on the same wave link

That's one of the " Johnny brand" I was referring to Kazimon.

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 12:10 pm

KenC
Admin

Joined:	Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location:	Florida &, Arizona USA
Posts:	11288
Status:	Offline

movas wrote: Hello people of 3T,

It's funny that my first post is actually of someone else's brand, but I think this post is a good indication of how the world of watches works and would like to put forth my opinion on the matter. Being the voice of reason, I just want to say that there is always a method to the madness for certain actions of any brand. You have to ask yourselves, if brand A told you the truth about their manufacturing, would you pay the amount that they think their products are worth based on how much they value their own designs?

The fact of the matter is (and I hate to have to say this), is that branding/ marketing/ product placement is a consumer driven decision. If people did not place such a high importance on 'swiss made' watches, then brands will not purport this, even if it was not true. There is very little emphasis on originality and design as watches are becoming more of a commodity. It must have an ETA inside, it must be 316L stainless steel, it must have C3 superluminova, It must be at least 300m WR, AR coating, domed sapphire, etc etc etc.... the list goes on, and when it's stamped 'swiss made' then the price is ratcheted up another notch. I for one do not see what doxa did wrong because they didn't set the rules for 'swiss made' neither did they break those rules.

We need to start to question 'why' we buy our watches and what is really important to us as consumers and base our decisions on that. Ultimately the online community for watches is but a very very small percentage of the consumer market for watches as a whole.

BTW, Love this forum and hope to contribute where I can.

Agree to a point, but one must realize that " branding/ marketing/ product placement is a consumer driven decision" is developed and paid for by millions upon millions of dollars of promotion, advertising and endorsements, which ultimately become part of the cost of "production" of the watch (not to mention the corporate salaries involved).

Just as in golf, the parts price of a $400 driver is probably less that $20 including graphite shaft, head, grip and assembly, there is a huge investment in sponsorships, advertising and endorsements that comprise most of the manufacturer to retailer price.

Rolex, for example (overpriced by anyones standards) must spend close to $100 million a year (more or less) on advertising and endorsements. Those dollars must be expensed somewhere...does it make it a better watch than many others? No...but the "Johnny Watch" is assembled for a certain cost and then promoted for "pennies" on watch forums, etc. If Johnny were to spend 10's of Millions of $ promoting the "Johnny Watch", it would be perceived to be of a higher quality than it may or may not be.

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 12:22 pm

Johnny P
Advisor

Joined:	Thu Nov 3rd, 2005
Location:	USA
Posts:	1783
Status:	Offline

KenC wrote:

Agree to a point, but one must realize that " branding/ marketing/ product placement is a consumer driven decision" is developed and paid for by millions upon millions of dollars of promotion, advertising and endorsements, which ultimately become part of the cost of "production" of the watch (not to mention the corporate salaries involved).

Just as in golf, the parts price of a $400 driver is probably less that $20 including graphite shaft, head, grip and assembly, there is a huge investment in sponsorships, advertising and endorsements that comprise most of the manufacturer to retailer price.

Rolex, for example (overpriced by anyones standards) must spend close to $100 million a year (more or less) on advertising and endorsements. Those dollars must be expensed somewhere...does it make it a better watch than many others? No...but the "Johnny Watch" is assembled for a certain cost and then promoted for "pennies" on watch forums, etc. If Johnny were to spend 10's of Millions of $ promoting the "Johnny Watch", it would be perceived to be of a higher quality than it may or may not be.

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 01:35 pm

Hammerfjord
Moderator

Joined:	Thu Apr 16th, 2009
Location:	Arctic, Norway
Posts:	5821
Status:	Offline

Johnny P wrote:
Hammerfjord we must be on the same wave link

That's one of the " Johnny brand" I was referring to Kazimon.

Yes, I was thinking the same in fact: Kazimon is a "Johnny brand". Also, if I would have asked a Big brand to replace them 2824-2 Eta by my own 2500 Co-axial Omega, I would have been gently sendt to hell...
Kazim been stretching himself and his team for me: The result is a fabulous watch.
The 1500 is a thruthfully produced watch: Even the double domed AR coated sapphire glass is made in Germany.
Kazim been posting himself, without that anybody been asking, pictures from his workshop and case making.
Doxa fans been asking for it, hoping that Doxa would wash away all doubts emited by scepticals: They are still waiting for those pictures apparently...
Transparency is an obligation if you want to interact with your buyers on forums.
Obscurity is, in my meaning, generaly caused by many skeletons laying in a secret closet.

KenC: I agree with you!

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 03:09 pm

SBD
3T WIS

Joined:	Sat Mar 1st, 2008
Location:	SnoTown, Washington USA
Posts:	407
Status:	Offline

movas wrote:
Hello people of 3T,

I for one do not see what doxa did wrong because they didn't set the rules for 'swiss made' neither did they break those rules.

Well, I sure see it! These rules define the minimum. Just because you've met them doesn't mean that you are being honest with your customers. Look at how Doxa has responded to the situation -- removing the photos and closing threads. What does that tell you? It tells you that they know that part of the value of their watches comes from the false perception that their watch cases are built is Switzerland -- and they are actively trying to eliminate the evidence that shows otherwise. I.e., promoting a lie.

While this is morally reprehensible, I'm not even going to argue that they are "wrong" for that reason. They're wrong from a business standpoint. Their PR is almost entirely built around the various WIS fora, and once these folks realize that they're being defrauded, I think that Doxa's business will be impacted. I know it will certainly be a factor for me if I ever consider buying a Doxa in the future...which is something I really doubt now.

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 03:27 pm

oagaspar
Site Founder

Joined:	Sun Sep 4th, 2005
Location:	Akron, USA
Posts:	28517
Status:	Offline

if any WIS honestly believes their Swiss Made watches are 100% they better take a closer look....Doxa is not the only Swiss brand that outsources to HK and there are very few Swiss companies that can claim 100% Swiss Made today.
....The Jenny Family/Walca Watch Co. picked up the Doxa brand in 1997 and were not a part of the rich heritage founded 100 years ago in Le Locle by Doxa founder Georges Ducommun...however they do carry on the tradition and Doxa fans like myself will always exist...
....over 900 million watches were exported from China last year and chances are we are all wearing watches that have something that came from there whether it be components or the entire watch...

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 03:41 pm

Hammerfjord
Moderator

Joined:	Thu Apr 16th, 2009
Location:	Arctic, Norway
Posts:	5821
Status:	Offline

oagaspar wrote:
if any WIS honestly believes their Swiss Made watches are 100% they better take a closer look....Doxa is not the only Swiss brand that outsources to HK and there are very few Swiss companies that can claim 100% Swiss Made today.
....The Jenny Family/Walca Watch Co. picked up the Doxa brand in 1997 and were not a part of the rich heritage founded 100 years ago in Le Locle by Doxa founder Georges Ducommun...however they do carry on the tradition and Doxa fans like myself will always exist...
....over 900 million watches were exported from China last year and chances are we are all wearing watches that have something that came from there whether it be components or the entire watch...

For sure Oscar, with all this massive Hong-Kong manufacture, we certainly have Chinese cases/parts in our collection, even they are stampeled "Swiss made"...
They just get assembled in Switzerland and that's it!
The question is: How much we paid for those watches?
I can pay 500-800$ for a top-notch hybride like that, with Chinese parts, Swiss ETA movement and assembled in Switzerland: No problem!
But not 1500-2000$ or more...
Because at this price, I've been having 100% German or 100% Swiss.
If the Doxa subs was selling for 600-800$ max, this thread would have very little meaning. Agree?

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 04:24 pm

Johnny P
Advisor

Joined:	Thu Nov 3rd, 2005
Location:	USA
Posts:	1783
Status:	Offline

I can officially claim to be an ex-fan. Not because where the watches are made I knew that. But for other reasons, I notice certain writing style at their site, and I swear John P is back or John P, and a certain person are one of the same. If I ever find hard facts or verify the latter, That's the day I will start my own website. It's not going to be pretty (stealth Lume)

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 04:32 pm

Johnny P
Advisor

Joined:	Thu Nov 3rd, 2005
Location:	USA
Posts:	1783
Status:	Offline

Hammerfjord wrote:
They just get assembled in Switzerland and that's it!

If that.

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 04:45 pm

Tony Duronio
3T WIS

Joined:	Thu Sep 29th, 2005
Location:	Clinton Twp, Michigan USA
Posts:	12862
Status:	Offline

So are you guys saying my Invictas with Swiss Made on the dial are not Swiss

JK, thought I would lighten the mood. Excellent thread JP and good info and opinions being shared

Posted: Sat Dec 11th, 2010 05:00 pm

Hammerfjord
Moderator

Joined:	Thu Apr 16th, 2009
Location:	Arctic, Norway
Posts:	5821
Status:	Offline

Johnny P wrote:
Hammerfjord wrote:
They just get assembled in Switzerland and that's it!

If that.

I just try to be nice and positive...

Current time is 12:16 am	Page: 1 2 3 4 5
TimeTechTalk.com > Time Tech Talk > Time Talk > A Chino-Swiss company who makes watches for "mid and high-level range	Top

Lead Theme By: Di @ UltraBB
UltraBB 1.17 Copyright © 2007-2012 Data 1 Systems
Page processed in 0.1225 seconds (38% database + 62% PHP). 34 queries executed.